Not sure if there has been a thread like this. And though I refer to it here as "PRO" Im really just curious about top end shooters. Whether that is in the form of the local guy that whups up on everyone or a nationally recognized Pro with tens of fans... Im more curious in 'your' experience with 'their' gear.

I understand that Pros will use the equipment that cuts them the most potential at a return on on investment.

That might be from a sponsor in the form of heavily discounted gear or services

Contingency from a manufacturer

Or select gear that the individual feels is indispensible (lucky stabilizer...)

All these factors will weigh into what a pro ultimately decides to carry into competition.

What I am curious about are some of fundamental pieces and not so much "Manufacturer Specifc" pieces of gear he or she carries.

East on Carbon express, bowtech or mathews... those bigger pieces are really irrelevant. What Im curious about is some of the set up. What they are trying to achieve within those select pieces of gear.

If you are in the know, and feel comfortable sharing about it I'd love to dig into some of this foundational stuff and see if there is some commonality.

1. Do Pro's typically hunt for a fat shaft over skinny or is it irrelevant and they focus more on the best shaft for consistency within a manufacture's portfolio?

2. If there was an average on shaft grains per pound, would it be closer to 5 (IBO) or would it be higher?

3. Playing with shafts ... ahem ... I notice that depending on GPP and target finished arrow weight, the FOC can vary widely. Is there a minimum threshold on FOC?

4. The importance of speed? I would not sacrifice speed for inherant accuracy. But when is that compromised?

5. Spring 'lizard tongue' or drop away?

6. What about bow draw weight? - for men, is 60 pounds the average? is it heavy? Light?

7. Scopes. 4x - 6x - no lens?

That's the quick down and dirty, if you see something you want to add please feel free, otherwise, look forward to your experience.

Thanks
-Joe

First, I hate the term "Pro" in archery. Anybody can be a Pro all you have to do is pay the extra money and TaaDaa........your a "Pro"

So

The only thing I could see that the big tournament winners have in common is there positive attitude and mental strength.

Once you learn how to hit the center of the target, it's all a mind game to do it every shot when your under pressure.

Not sure if there has been a thread like this. And though I refer to it here as "PRO" Im really just curious about top end shooters. Whether that is in the form of the local guy that whups up on everyone or a nationally recognized Pro with tens of fans... Im more curious in 'your' experience with 'their' gear.

I understand that Pros will use the equipment that cuts them the most potential at a return on on investment.

That might be from a sponsor in the form of heavily discounted gear or services

Contingency from a manufacturer

Or select gear that the individual feels is indispensible (lucky stabilizer...)

All these factors will weigh into what a pro ultimately decides to carry into competition.

What I am curious about are some of fundamental pieces and not so much "Manufacturer Specifc" pieces of gear he or she carries.

East on Carbon express, bowtech or mathews... those bigger pieces are really irrelevant. What Im curious about is some of the set up. What they are trying to achieve within those select pieces of gear.

If you are in the know, and feel comfortable sharing about it I'd love to dig into some of this foundational stuff and see if there is some commonality.

1. Do Pro's typically hunt for a fat shaft over skinny or is it irrelevant and they focus more on the best shaft for consistency within a manufacture's portfolio?

2. If there was an average on shaft grains per pound, would it be closer to 5 (IBO) or would it be higher?

3. Playing with shafts ... ahem ... I notice that depending on GPP and target finished arrow weight, the FOC can vary widely. Is there a minimum threshold on FOC?

4. The importance of speed? I would not sacrifice speed for inherant accuracy. But when is that compromised?

5. Spring 'lizard tongue' or drop away?

6. What about bow draw weight? - for men, is 60 pounds the average? is it heavy? Light?

7. Scopes. 4x - 6x - no lens?

That's the quick down and dirty, if you see something you want to add please feel free, otherwise, look forward to your experience.

Thanks
-Joe


Answers are endless. I realize you want to know about the top pros who win regularly. You have some of the best ever here. Dean Pridgean and Mike Leitor and Jame Jamison and others. I get slammed all the time for bringing the pro thing up. But in my 25yrs of archery those top guns certianly know the tricks of the trade.

My suggestion is learn who to pm with the questions.

Javi here and JDX are most respected and darn sure know there stuff. As well as many others. Some may be more suited to answer a question about hunting riggs.

Biggest thing Im seeing right now is some of the pros are going back to Aluminum arrows. Top three archers at the last ASA Pro am are using aluminums. But there plenty using carbons and winning as well. One of the newest things is making your arrow hit exactly at 20yrds bareshaft or fletched. Super tuning the arrows.

Most top pros will always use the KISS Principle. Keep it simple!

Launcher blades are by far the most popular rest.

Bows- I can say most the bows these pros use are tweak for maximum performance. May be shimming limb pockets or cutting limbs to gain speed.
Custome strings.


Best thing to do is post your questions and see if what is being said makes sense for you and what your looking for. There is no one way. Archery is finding what works for you!

Good Luck!

The only thing I could see that the big tournament winners have in common is there positive attitude and mental strength.

Once you learn how to hit the center of the target, it's all a mind game to do it every shot when your under pressure.

I agree 100% with that.

However I think that the equipment side is somewhat important, not as important as form & mental, but not unimportan. I've noticed that the guys who we all think of as "Top Pros" seem to spend a huge amount of time testing and adjusting their equipment and their form to get the absolute best mix for them.

I read somewhere that Jack Cramer once shot over a thousand arrows one a weekend just to decide on the best vane to use. Most of us just say "I've heard that **** vanes are good, give me the orange one's".

Most of us couldn't shoot a thousand good, accurate arrows in week let alone a weekend.

IMHO form is the # 1 thing to practice, but equipment testing can be done at the same time.

It's certainly fun to see what the great shooters are using and it can be helpful to get ideas from them. With that in mind:

Arrows - the better shooters will match the arrow to the venue. Fat for indoor & 3D, skinny for longer range where wind is a factor.

Arrow weight - heavy indoor and long range or marked distance, light for unknown distance, 3D

Speed - more is better at unknown distances - not so important at marked distances

Rest - nothing is as important as dependability. The lizard tongue rests have no moving parts so less to worry about. Accuracy seems to be as good as with drop away for most.

Draw weight - you would think that with as many arrows as these guys shoot, they would go with lighter draw weights. But most that I've seen seem to keep the weight up at least to 60 lbs. Maybe this helps "muscles through" a weak execution.

Scopes - everyone's eyes are different, so there is not going to be much of a concensus. Also, there are different aiming techniques that require different lens power. It seems to me that most like the least magnification that does the job for them. Lower magnification equals less apparent pin movement. The pin is probably moving exactly the same, but if it appears less, then it helps avoid the little added tension of seeing it move a lot.

Hope that this is what you are looking for,
Allen

I agree 100% with that.

However I think that the equipment side is somewhat important, not as important as form & mental, but not unimportan. I've noticed that the guys who we all think of as "Top Pros" seem to spend a huge amount of time testing and adjusting their equipment and their form to get the absolute best mix for them.

I read somewhere that Jack Cramer once shot over a thousand arrows one a weekend just to decide on the best vane to use. Most of us just say "I've heard that **** vanes are good, give me the orange one's".

Most of us couldn't shoot a thousand good, accurate arrows in week let alone a weekend.

IMHO form is the # 1 thing to practice, but equipment testing can be done at the same time.

It's certainly fun to see what the great shooters are using and it can be helpful to get ideas from them. With that in mind:

Arrows - the better shooters will match the arrow to the venue. Fat for indoor & 3D, skinny for longer range where wind is a factor.

Arrow weight - heavy indoor and long range or marked distance, light for unknown distance, 3D

Speed - more is better at unknown distances - not so important at marked distances

Rest - nothing is as important as dependability. The lizard tongue rests have no moving parts so less to worry about. Accuracy seems to be as good as with drop away for most.

Draw weight - you would think that with as many arrows as these guys shoot, they would go with lighter draw weights. But most that I've seen seem to keep the weight up at least to 60 lbs. Maybe this helps "muscles through" a weak execution.

Scopes - everyone's eyes are different, so there is not going to be much of a concensus. Also, there are different aiming techniques that require different lens power. It seems to me that most like the least magnification that does the job for them. Lower magnification equals less apparent pin movement. The pin is probably moving exactly the same, but if it appears less, then it helps avoid the little added tension of seeing it move a lot.

Hope that this is what you are looking for,
Allen


Dean Pridgean said he felt Cramer was if not the best he ever saw. Darn close. Those guys test and test. Bobby Ketcher may have 30 different arrows he is testing at times. Nathan Brooks has PSE factory engineers and test equipment to use as well. The resources for test products is endless.
You walk into Dean Garage and you will find endless products he is testing.
Lots of arrows and bows shot by these guys.
DB
DB

One comment... unless you are shooting 1350+ FITA, 540+ field or 10-20 up on 50 yard 3-D most of the "tricks" used aren't going to improve your scores... First learn to repeat the shooter/process..... then improve the bow...

One comment... unless you are shooting 1350+ FITA, 540+ field or 10-20 up on 50 yard 3-D most of the "tricks" used aren't going to improve your scores... First learn to repeat the shooter/process..... then improve the bow...

This where I am at... I have some of the best equipment available, but suck in the shooter/process catagory LOL

One comment... unless you are shooting 1350+ FITA, 540+ field or 10-20 up on 50 yard 3-D most of the "tricks" used aren't going to improve your scores... First learn to repeat the shooter/process..... then improve the bow...

I get beat up for commenting on this line of thought, but whole-heartedly agree. I see shooters that buy bells, whistles, new bows, have a bag full of releases and 10 kinds of arrows that are just trying shoot a 300 indoor or come close to "even" on a 3-d course.

They would be sooo much better served finding someone to work with them and simply becoming "one" with what they have. I liked the way Dave Cousin's put it in his seminar last year. He mentioned that he has shot an Ultra-tec for "over a decade". He has used the trophy taker spring steel for almost as long, almost always the same release, same sight....hmmm.

He pointed out that "desire" is really the most valuable thing he has. He also pointed out some things he does to "stay hungry". Those words were priceless in my book.

I know all too well about changing equipment. Making the switch to open class has thrown me into a tizzy with everything I had to change. It was really hard to accept how many things I was doing "wrong" for the simple reason that it "worked" while shooting pins.

I know that time and work are what will help me get back on my game. Buying an overdraw like Jesse has, setting the nodes on my arrows like Griv does, changing from a just-b-cuz to an Ibex like Darrin, changing to a Gold tip like Levi.......

If only it were that simple!:Cry:

I get beat up for commenting on this line of thought, but whole-heartedly agree. I see shooters that buy bells, whistles, new bows, have a bag full of releases and 10 kinds of arrows that are just trying shoot a 300 indoor or come close to "even" on a 3-d course.

They would be sooo much better served finding someone to work with them and simply becoming "one" with what they have. I liked the way Dave Cousin's put it in his seminar last year. He mentioned that he has shot an Ultra-tec for "over a decade". He has used the trophy taker spring steel for almost as long, almost always the same release, same sight....hmmm.

He pointed out that "desire" is really the most valuable thing he has. He also pointed out some things he does to "stay hungry". Those words were priceless in my book.

I know all too well about changing equipment. Making the switch to open class has thrown me into a tizzy with everything I had to change. It was really hard to accept how many things I was doing "wrong" for the simple reason that it "worked" while shooting pins.

I know that time and work are what will help me get back on my game. Buying an overdraw like Jesse has, setting the nodes on my arrows like Griv does, changing from a just-b-cuz to an Ibex like Darrin, changing to a Gold tip like Levi.......

If only it were that simple!:Cry:

Case in point....:biggrin1:


Last night I challenged one of my students to shoot 30 shots on a Vegas target at 10 yards without missing an inside out baby X while using 2712's....

I told him there was no time limit except he could not sit down and rest.. He was free to let down as many times as necessary to accomplish the feat. He could warm up as much as he wanted and to start when he was ready... but once he started scoring he could not stop shooting except to pull arrows and score until he had fired all 30 shots...

Use a good coach. Coach is something many will find improves one shooting better than anything else.
DB

Lots of great questions! Always gear up and ask too many folks shy away from asking do to the fear of looking dumb, there are a lot of times folks have missed out on some good info because of this.

A quick review

The best thing anyone at any level can do to improve the game is visit with a good coach – and one with an open mind that is more willing to mold you versus having to change and buy all sorts of stuff.

When deciding what arrow to use, we often look at what type of game is being played and the surroundings—for outdoors that would be - are we in an area that has a lot of cover –for wind is or is it more open. You will always see a trend for the fatter shafts on the indoor games but yet it still comes down to being able to utilize the diameter with the given setup and the shooters abilities. There are some fatter shafts now days that are more user friendly as far as being able to tune well and shoot consistent.

Many folks have used skinny arrows in Expl. X10 Protours for 3D - arrows of this sort are very skinny in diameter and heavy - if your game and form is on these arrows would blast right thru most wind conditions and nail the 12 & 14 rings with great consistency. It really comes down to the distance you need to cover in your division and your skill level any arrow when set up close to correct will fly well you can then pick from there for one that will average you the best scores possible. As the ranges closes in to the shorter distances a fatter shaft will score well do to less wind effects as your range stretches back out, there’s more chance of the fatter diameter getting pushed by the wind. This is when you take a look at your terrain at the event if you have enough cover then there won’t be as many issues.
Note there were quite a few of us using gold Tip Triple Xs and arrows comparable and shooting in ranges that exceeded 50 yards without many issues I had confidence in my bow and the Triples were hammering.

Most of the IBO folks will run close to 5 Grains with an arrow / bow combination that is consistent.

ASA folks like to pick an arrow - be it a med. diameter to the fat shafts that they can put together and run close to the 280 mark for speed, some of these folks actually listen to the bows going off ahead of them and listen to the time it takes to hit the target these folks will get a good feel for the time travel versus the distance to help in their distance judging.

NFAA Outdoor field folks - most will pick their arrow of choice and try to run as heavy as possible while zoning in at 270 fps. This gives these folks an arrow that plains the wind well and maintain great down range momentum for a more precise arrow placement at the extended distances even though the max was 280 fps.

9% to 12% is probably the most common average as far as FOC.

lizard tongues and drops a very common and many of us use both - mattering on the setup being used.
60 lbs is a good average and some will slide even higher to 70 on the
3D venue and 2x to 4x scope are the most common for all venues

Remember!!!
The best thing anyone at any level can do to improve the game is visit with a good coach – and one with an open mind that is more willing to mold you versus having to change and buy all sorts of stuff.

I hope some of this helps

Good Shooting!

I love conversation like this.

I am a tinkerer by nature, but feel I have a pretty firm grasp on the limited role that equipment plays in reaching ones full potential.

Some curious things I've noticed in my 24 years in the sport (99.9% of which was with longbow and recurve)

the swapping of gear each year. A good bow is a good bow, and it takes me about a month or more to really get comfortable and get a new rig set up corectly for 'me'. With that investment, I dont know that changing in a year would represent a wise return. In some cases, at least from my perspective, the latest and greatest bows can actually take a step backwards in performance and or forgiveness. Once settled, I would think changes in equipment would (should?) come rather slow... deliberate as opposed to what we see now.

I DO love testing and analysis. It can be a struggle to not get too focused on the minutia. I tune all of my gear, and make my own arrows. My current interest is in the process around making extremely consistent arrows. Putting them all within a 10th of a grain. Fletching with a single bitz. Etc. I've notice a large improvement in consistency with this approach, though I feel there is a long way to go here.

Daniel, I've often wondered why more people do not use aluminum... extremely consistent spine and weight compared to carbon.

Coach - I'm self taught, and with that comes a sense of pride that gets in the way of being a good student... However. I think I've reached a limit of ability from that inward out perspective... There are compoents of my game that will now prevent me from progressing past the point I am at now without outward in guidance. Im in Washington state. How does a person go about finding a good coach? DO Good coaches take beer as payment? If not, how much does one typically cost?

Appreciate the discussion :)

I love conversation like this.

I am a tinkerer by nature, but feel I have a pretty firm grasp on the limited role that equipment plays in reaching ones full potential.

Some curious things I've noticed in my 24 years in the sport (99.9% of which was with longbow and recurve)

the swapping of gear each year. A good bow is a good bow, and it takes me about a month or more to really get comfortable and get a new rig set up corectly for 'me'. With that investment, I dont know that changing in a year would represent a wise return. In some cases, at least from my perspective, the latest and greatest bows can actually take a step backwards in performance and or forgiveness. Once settled, I would think changes in equipment would (should?) come rather slow... deliberate as opposed to what we see now.

I DO love testing and analysis. It can be a struggle to not get too focused on the minutia. I tune all of my gear, and make my own arrows. My current interest is in the process around making extremely consistent arrows. Putting them all within a 10th of a grain. Fletching with a single bitz. Etc. I've notice a large improvement in consistency with this approach, though I feel there is a long way to go here.

Daniel, I've often wondered why more people do not use aluminum... extremely consistent spine and weight compared to carbon.

Coach - I'm self taught, and with that comes a sense of pride that gets in the way of being a good student... However. I think I've reached a limit of ability from that inward out perspective... There are compoents of my game that will now prevent me from progressing past the point I am at now without outward in guidance. Im in Washington state. How does a person go about finding a good coach? DO Good coaches take beer as payment? If not, how much does one typically cost?

Appreciate the discussion :)


Because in 3d you can lose three arrows a shoot with aluminum. Thats my number one reason. Easily damaged. I remember when I shot alluminums, I would go through three to four dozen a year. Good Pros dont pay for them. Us wanna be pros have to pay for are arrows.

Good Coachs are not that hard to find. Good coach isnt cheap. Im lucky to have Xquest here on the forums. Im a work in progress.

I love to try new things. But honestly the last two years I have left my bow alone.
DB

I'm not a Pro, but here are my thoughts.



Not sure if there has been a thread like this. And though I refer to it here as "PRO" Im really just curious about top end shooters. Whether that is in the form of the local guy that whups up on everyone or a nationally recognized Pro with tens of fans... Im more curious in 'your' experience with 'their' gear.

I understand that Pros will use the equipment that cuts them the most potential at a return on on investment.

That might be from a sponsor in the form of heavily discounted gear or services

Contingency from a manufacturer

Or select gear that the individual feels is indispensible (lucky stabilizer...)

All these factors will weigh into what a pro ultimately decides to carry into competition.

What I am curious about are some of fundamental pieces and not so much "Manufacturer Specifc" pieces of gear he or she carries.

East on Carbon express, bowtech or mathews... those bigger pieces are really irrelevant. What Im curious about is some of the set up. What they are trying to achieve within those select pieces of gear.

If you are in the know, and feel comfortable sharing about it I'd love to dig into some of this foundational stuff and see if there is some commonality.

1. Do Pro's typically hunt for a fat shaft over skinny or is it irrelevant and they focus more on the best shaft for consistency within a manufacture's portfolio?

I base my shaft size choice on what kind of shooting I'm doing. Fat shafts for indoor for better line cutting. Skinny to medium size shafts for outdoors target shooting. Skinnier shafts equal less wind issues. My outdoor bow doubles for field and 3D so my arrows tend to be a little skinner than most for 3d. I shoot carbon arrows so I usually sort through a few to find a dozen that perform the same. I buy the best I can afford and tune from there. Weigh and spine matching is the key.

2. If there was an average on shaft grains per pound, would it be closer to 5 (IBO) or would it be higher?

Indoor arrow weight is far higher than IBO standards. Indoor I'm shooting 45-46 lbs of draw weight with a 433-435 grain arrow. My outdoor arrows come in some where between 5.5 to 6.0 grns per lb. Its depends on arrow spine and bow setup. I'm usually right around 270fps. WHich is where I'm trying to be between 270-280fps. Also my DL limits my arrow speeds to that general speed range.


3. Playing with shafts ... ahem ... I notice that depending on GPP and target finished arrow weight, the FOC can vary widely. Is there a minimum threshold on FOC?

As for FOC. I personally want atleast 10%. My outdoor arrows are setup right around 14%, thats because I shoot more field than 3D. Marked yardage I like around 14%. If I were to setup a bow just for 3D I would keep my FOC closer to 10%. For Indoor I take all the FOC I can get, but thats me.

4. The importance of speed? I would not sacrifice speed for inherant accuracy. But when is that compromised?

Speed is only good if you can control it. So practice is key.

5. Spring 'lizard tongue' or drop away?

I shoot both. I switched to a blade for indoor this year. I did well with it. It simply has less part or things that can go wrong. I put a blade on for outdoor and well it wasn't as forgiving as my drop away so I switched back for now. I know I caved:frusty: :frusty: . Both work very well, but a blade is a more reliable design when it comes to failure.

6. What about bow draw weight? - for men, is 60 pounds the average? is it heavy? Light?

I shoot between 45 to 65lbs of draw weight. You just need to find out what works for you between draw weight and holding weight. My draw weights vary a little from indoor to outdoor and hunting.


7. Scopes. 4x - 6x - no lens?

Scope lens powers are personal. There is a blend of, how much magnifaction you can tolerate, what kind of sight picture your looking for, how much pin float you can handle, what kind of aiming device your using, what kind of shooting your doing, and whether or not you want to use a clarifier? You'll have to play around to answer all those questions accurately.


That's the quick down and dirty, if you see something you want to add please feel free, otherwise, look forward to your experience.

Thanks
-Joe

I guess would be considered a "non-tinkerer". My nature is to reseach something to death and then devise a game plan that is the best it can be with the available information. After setting forth that plan I stick to it very staunchly. It takes a lot to get me to change things. Set it and forget it!

I heavily favor consistency and familiarity over trying some new tweak every week in pursuit of the "re-invented" wheel.

Following that same line of thought I typically will "go without" until I can afford "the best available". Luckily, the best is not always the most expensive.

On the coaching topic, I would do about anything to have good coach locally. Someone who is close enough to visit weekly and who is focused on working with what I have. I would pay well if that person's focus was committed to coaching me and not consumed with competing himself.

Spot on Hunt Elk

I brought the subject of equipment up as a bit of a stop gap to my own quest to nail things down. It is sometimes wasted effort to do a bunch of testing to arrive at the exact same conclusion as everyone else.

Boiled down, my question on gear or strategy on gear is more about 'what NOT to do' and confirms a couple of my own thoughts on the process.

I competed at a very high level racing ATV's off road. I am quite confidant that, while I was not the fastest guy out there, I was the fastest that I could be. I had achieved my potential. In going through that process I gained a firm understanding of the role of equipment.

It is the most easily changed variable. But after an initial gain yields diminishing improvement and actually becomes a barrier to true improvement as we focus on it, instead fo identifying the real barriers in need of improvement.

That said, equipment still carries with it some very fundamental components to you realizing your full potential within a discipline. There is a refinement, or a level of equipment that would represent the minimum to be able to perform. Under that level and your equipment will hold you back. At or above that level and your equipment will reveal the factors you need to work on, if simply by the elimination of equipment as a variable.

Anyway, a bit of a rambling post. Thanks again for the time.

I too have enjoyed this thread. It is interesting to hear how other shooter's thought processes work. There are so many "right" answers on any given subject that often we loose sight of how personalized out sport is.

There are a ton of top level shooters that succeed with quite different equipment and form. I have learned that you can "fast-track" and avoid much of the wasted testing/tinkering time by reseach and observation of top level competitors. I am not proud and have no problem mooching data collected by other shooter's toils.

The key there is finding the source that has a style and physical attributes very similar to yourself. I am 6'3" with a 31" dl. I am comfortable with draw weight up to about 63 lbs. I have fairly long hands, but not "thick" hands. I shoot best with a pretty aggressive approach to the line and have some "type A" personality traits. I have 20/20 vision. I shoot 3-d, indoor and field-in that order of priority.

These are a few things to consider when choosing "who" you take your ideas from. When looking for a starting point for a bow am I going to be observing what Art Brown or Danny McCarthy shoot, or Dave Cousins and Levi Morgan shoot? When looking for a release do I look at Jeff Hopkin's (huge mitts), Griv's (small) or someone with a hands sized like mine? What about scope lens? Am I going to copy what a guy wearing glasses uses?

I think you get the point. Where I get into trouble is when I won't use someone's suggestion/method and they assume that I don't because i don't "respect" them enough or am just plain bull-headed.

Case in point; when I moved to a scope and hand-held release and was having a hard time getting my shot to go off one of my best friends insisted i needed an evolution release. When I told him I didn't have an issue with not "pulling" he took offense to it and thought I didn't respect his ability to help. One top pro said my trigger was too heavy, one said my release was too small for my hands, one said I wasn't pre-loading correctly, one said my draw length was too long, one said I had tension in my wrist.

Three weeks later I finally got a little coaching from a guy that has competed for close to 40 years and found that I had my bow shoulder tensed up enough to diminish my draw length nearly 3/4". For the record, he is also a tall, average build knuckle-dragger like myself.

My first point is that it took someone of very similar physical build to recognize what was happening. My second somewhat subliminal point is that it took someone who has "been-there-won-that" and is not still consumed with competing himself to take the time and listen, watch and then help:thumb:

One thing I want to add: I appreciated all the input and respect all whom I talked with, but had to keep pushing to find the issue. Just because a guy didn't have the right answer doesn't mean I think anything less of him!:hug:

The thing is...

You don't need to emulate the top archers in order to reach that level.

There are a few commonalities among all top archers just as there is among all top competitors in any sport; both in form, execution and mental approach. These are the things you should study and strive to imitate, not their choice of equipment, style or broad range of form.


A good coach can guide you to the trough, but can't make you drink... that is something you must do for yourself...


The secret to winning archery is to find what works for you and is the easiest for you to repeat, then learn that process through repetition until it is the only way “YOU” know... A good coach will help you do this...

The thing is...

You don't need to emulate the top archers in order to reach that level.

There are a few commonalities among all top archers just as there is among all top competitors in any sport; both in form, execution and mental approach. These are the things you should study and strive to imitate, not their choice of equipment, style or broad range of form.


A good coach can guide you to the trough, but can't make you drink... that is something you must do for yourself...


The secret to winning archery is to find what works for you and is the easiest for you to repeat, then learn that process through repetition until it is the only way “YOU” know... A good coach will help you do this...

You speak of the formula I believe in, now if only I could find THAT coach!

I think Dean needs to move back to KC!

i think the biggest secret to archery is knowing what fits, then building on it.