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  1. #1
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    Default frustrated BT newbie

    hello all this is my first post here and i know i am asking a lot but i am desperate:

    i have been trying to learn "back tension", NOT push/pull, shooting with a hinge for anout 8 months and about all i have "learned" s how to activate a release using my rhomboids. as far as geting a "surprise release", i am LOST there are so many questions i have and i know they are hard to answer because a lot of it deals with feel rather than concrete tangible answers to make it simple i will just make a list of questions and if i get any answers to any of them it would be great:

    1. how much "tension", pull, whatever should it take to get a hinge to fire? i mean should you really feel a burning in the rhomboids, really be squeezing hard to get it to fire? or should it take very little "contraction" that you don't really even notice it.

    2. at full draw, should my elbow be extended as far back as it will go, kind of like stretching a rubber band as far as i can?

    3. should my hand be held perpendicular to the ground or should my pinky be somewhat higher than my index finger. i seem to get more "power" if i hol it on an angle, if not my wrist tends to bend.

    4. how hard should my grip be? sometimes i actually feel the release sliding in my hand and then definitely no surprise like "travel" in a trigger also do i intentionally put more pressure on my outer finger once at full draw or keep an even hold? when i keep an even hold the release never seems to rotate it just keeps pulling straight back.

    5. how in the world can the release be a "surpise" when you can feel the dynamic tension building? how do i make it a surprise?

    6. roughly how long should it take the release to fire ONCE I START SQUEEZING until explosion

    7. do other's have a problem with cerain style hinges, getting the string to touch the face at anchor. it seems like with the design om my hinge, i can't get the string to touch the corner of my mouth unless i hold it at an extreme angle?

    i guess that's all i can think of for now(i'm sure there is much more). at least i can fire get the release to go off just using my back muscles. now i need to refine it and learn to make it a true subconscious surprise release? i know i am asking a lot. any help would be great.

  2. #2
    I pray for you! BUNNYMAN's Avatar
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    and some one will be along shortly to answer your questions!
    I cut things up and split them down!

  3. #3
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    I swamped at work right now I will try to help you later today
    The only one that is your competitor is the air between your ears!



  4. #4
    Member Scottyluck's Avatar
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    What type of release are you using?

    The "squeezing" actually rotates the shoulder which in turn causes a slight rotation of the release which causes it to fire. That is the "surprise" you are looking for.

    Most guys using BT have a good idea of when the release will happen, usually in a set amount of time. If it doesn't happen in that time they will let down and re-set the process. Once you start your triggering sequence within your entire shot sequence your concentration should be on aiming and the release should just happen. That's the "surprise"

    DL is crucial when using BT. Too long and you will have a ton of trouble trying to get the trigger to release because you will be over extended. Too short and you will probably have a very inconsistent release.

    As far as hand position that's all personal preference. Look at pics of the Pros and you will see all manner of position.

    If you are doing everything right there will be very little tension in your releas hand as well as your bow hand.

    I would suggest putting the bow down and setting up a length of rope or cord the length of your draw and practice BT with that. Forget about the bow. If you insist on using the bow take the sight off and stand 3 feet from a target, close your eyes and concentrate on your release.
    Vortex Optics Field Staff

  5. #5
    Bisquit....... BowhuntnHoosier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyluck View Post
    What type of release are you using?

    The "squeezing" actually rotates the shoulder which in turn causes a slight rotation of the release which causes it to fire. That is the "surprise" you are looking for.

    Most guys using BT have a good idea of when the release will happen, usually in a set amount of time. If it doesn't happen in that time they will let down and re-set the process. Once you start your triggering sequence within your entire shot sequence your concentration should be on aiming and the release should just happen. That's the "surprise"

    DL is crucial when using BT. Too long and you will have a ton of trouble trying to get the trigger to release because you will be over extended. Too short and you will probably have a very inconsistent release.

    As far as hand position that's all personal preference. Look at pics of the Pros and you will see all manner of position.

    If you are doing everything right there will be very little tension in your releas hand as well as your bow hand.

    I would suggest putting the bow down and setting up a length of rope or cord the length of your draw and practice BT with that. Forget about the bow. If you insist on using the bow take the sight off and stand 3 feet from a target, close your eyes and concentrate on your release.
    Yep what he said........


    "HONDA"

  6. #6
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    1. how much "tension", pull, whatever should it take to get a hinge to fire? i mean should you really feel a burning in the rhomboids, really be squeezing hard to get it to fire? or should it take very little "contraction" that you don't really even notice it.

    The amount of tension that you feel will depend on exactly how you make the release fire. However, it should be a relaxed & easy movement. Critical is to keep it smooth and continuous without hesitation. You can put as much tension into it as you want to as long as it is consistent. The old round wheel bows shot best from the middle of the valley. Newer bows can be shot from hard against the wall and still shoot well. The key is to use consistent and smooth tension so that your release execution doesn't effect your sight picture.

    2. at full draw, should my elbow be extended as far back as it will go, kind of like stretching a rubber band as far as i can?

    No. There should be a straight line from the point of your arrow through your release hand to your elbow. Keep a firm bone to bone anchor between your hand and face. Don't allow your anchor point to move during the shot.

    3. should my hand be held perpendicular to the ground or should my pinky be somewhat higher than my index finger. i seem to get more "power" if i hol it on an angle, if not my wrist tends to bend.

    Your release hand should be in a natural and relaxed position. You want to have as little muscle tension in your hand as possible except that your fingers should be about 90 degrees to hold onto the release.

    4. how hard should my grip be? sometimes i actually feel the release sliding in my hand and then definitely no surprise like "travel" in a trigger also do i intentionally put more pressure on my outer finger once at full draw or keep an even hold? when i keep an even hold the release never seems to rotate it just keeps pulling straight back.

    Your fingers on the release should be a 90 degree "L". Keep the back of your hand flat and relaxed. Use only enough muscle to hold onto the release. Any pressure you put on with your outer fingers must be done subconsciously so that you don't anticipate it. Anticipation will lead to hesitation and that leads to freezing & jerking.


    5. how in the world can the release be a "surpise" when you can feel the dynamic tension building? how do i make it a surprise?

    It's a surprise because you are not paying attention to it. You have to be tightly focused on the target and allow the release to execute subconsciously. Any flicker of attention to the release side of the shot is bad. One of the hardest things for me to do is to keep my focus on the target and separate the sight picture and the release activation. You want to focus your mind on holding the pin on the target and allow the release to execute subconsciously, without any mental attention to the back end of the shot.

    6. roughly how long should it take the release to fire ONCE I START SQUEEZING until explosion

    The better shooters I've seen usually average 3 to 6 seconds. We have one guy at my club who holds 20 to 30 seconds and still shoots 58 to 60 X's. He is an extreme exception. Try to practice explosion in about 4 seconds, but keep it smooth and continuous.

    7. do other's have a problem with cerain style hinges, getting the string to touch the face at anchor. it seems like with the design om my hinge, i can't get the string to touch the corner of my mouth unless i hold it at an extreme angle?

    Yes, the specific release design, the shape of your face, your bow's ATA, your draw length, and a few other things will effect your anchor point. This is something that most need a little help with. Do you know a successful target shooter that will help you with this?

    Hope this helps,
    Allen

  7. #7
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    good info here
    The only one that is your competitor is the air between your ears!



  8. #8
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    Default thanks

    thanks guys. i did gain from your posts. i think i am expecting something magical about making it a surprise. so you are sayng making it a surprise is a mental discipline? i was thinking that the release should just fire wthout "feeling" any increase in tension or feling any movement. i keep wondering, that is impossible, you have to be doing SOMETHING. i just need to know that i am doing it right in the physical so i can start working on the mental. i do get follow through, but like i said i know almost exactly when it will fire through repetition.you are saying just to focus harder on aiming? that is the key. i have all the muscle memory. heck i just raise my arm up in that position during daily activities and my back starts contracting.
    Last edited by shortarrow; 01-16-2009 at 06:28 PM.

  9. #9
    Member Scottyluck's Avatar
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    The whole point of BT is to focus your concentration on aiming and not think about aiming AND triggering the release. The muscle memory will kick in and trigger that surprise release.
    As stated above, it is tricky to not allow your mind to wander toward the act of trigger the release which you want to be as subconcious an act as possible.
    Focus on the target and aiming. Let the release happen.
    Vortex Optics Field Staff

  10. #10
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    Default thanks...and

    thanks guys. another couple things.

    for me to "find" good strong back tension, i need to anchor higher than what it looks like most people anchor.my arrow nock is almost up to the corner of my mouth, but when i anchor like this my rhomboids really engage and pull. if i anchor lower i have to squeeze until i am blue in the face just to get it to fire nevermind ever being able to aim. i actuallly will need to work on slowing it(the shot) down when i have a high elbow.

    wth my hinge, i have to set it right on the edge because any heaver and i feel the travel bfore t fires and it'll never be a surprise. i have read that to fire a hinge using back tension ONLY, it has to be set almost dangerously light. Is that true?

    sometimes when shooting i notice the peep sight moving away from my face. is this a form of creeping. to prevent it i MUST pull some with my arm. not necessarily pull BACK, but pull to MAINTAIN. is that normal and to be expected?

    one last thing i am having trouble wth is keeping my shoulder locked out there. sometimes it flies back at me and that shot is done. is this another case of having to "push" to maintain or should my front arm stay locked out there with no effort?

    thanks guys.

  11. #11
    Buckeyes #1 <---- Slippy's Avatar
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    I thought about trying BT but gave up on the idea....I might try a thumb release though. Yeah, I know so don't.
    Prostaff of whatever DB uses.

  12. #12
    Member Scottyluck's Avatar
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    You shouldn't have to squeeze like you're trying to pull the entire rack of a Lat pulldown machine. It sounds to me like you are introducing too much tension into your shot. I think you are actually putting too much emphasis on the act of sqeezing your shoulders together. It should feel almost effortless. Again, all the squeezing is doing is rotating your shoulders to activate the release. You should be able to anchoring normal and be able to achieve the same results of the squeeze.

    2 things I can think of if you see the peep moving away from you.
    One is that you are creeping forward and that your draw may be too short. 2 is that you are still not concentrating 100% on aiming. This is why I suggest getting rid of the bow and setting up the string to practice BT.

    As far as the release again, it's personal preference. I have mine set pretty light.

    Nothing should fly anywhere after the shot. Your follow through should be smooth.
    Check out the link below. Its a short vid of my shot sequence setting up a shot on 53 yd bear. Notice after the shot the follow through is smooth. Nothing flys anywhere. I'm not saying this is a text book example but it works well for me.

    frustrated BT newbie - General Archery Forum
    Last edited by Scottyluck; 01-17-2009 at 03:32 PM.
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  13. #13
    Member Scottyluck's Avatar
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    What release are you using? Do you have any pics of you at full draw?
    Vortex Optics Field Staff

  14. #14
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    When I first started shooting BT. I used a rope attached to a peice of wood and gripped it like the grip of a bow then just practiced while sitting in my living room feeling the release. Then moved to Blind Baling from about 3 yards. I have not shot with the BT release for quite awhile and I think I need to get back to it. Because TP is creeping back into my thumb release and regular trigger hunting release. Thanks alot guys for all the good information here.


    "HONDA"

  15. #15
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    Cool thanks again...and possible problem discovered

    don't have any pics right now, but i will try. i noticed on thing. the way i was positioning my shoulder at full draw was pretty far back(damn near ROLLED back) and i was squeezing and squeezing, but my shoulder/elbow had no room left to rotate. something a coach would have noticed immediately. if at full draw, my shoulder is rolled forward a little,i feel the squeezing and crack, boom, bang, off it goes. a shorter draw like would FORCE my shoulder "in" a little i think. now i know what Larry Wise means about "setting the scapula close to the spine but not as close as it can get". i wasn't leaving any room for any "rotation". i was at a wall going something like this- . By the way, i have done the string trick thousands of times. now i use a Saunder's firing line(simulates shooting a bow). and i have blind bailed thousands more.

    You guys are great for the help. When I was doing this "good' with my bow, it was like my DL was too short and i couldn't get a comfortable anchor, but then it was working so well i needed to actually work on slowing the shot down. so do you guys think the rolled back shoulder has been a big obstacle?

  16. #16
    Member Scottyluck's Avatar
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    When you come to full draw the elbow on your release arm and your bow arm should form a straight line. It should only take minimal movement to fire a BT release. There should not be an overload of tension anywhere in your body.

    If you stand there and overexaggerate the motion of squeezing your shoulder blades together you will notice the motion that will take place to fire the release.
    The actual act of triggering the release is such a small movement it will not be noticable. If your release hand flys away after the shot there is too much tension. If you look at the vid above of my follow through there is a bit more movement in my release hand than there should be. That was a few years ago. I'm a bit smoother now.

    FWIW, I should state I am by NO means an expert at any of this(But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!!! ).
    These are just a few tips and techniques I picked up and some things that helped me.
    Last edited by Scottyluck; 01-17-2009 at 08:49 PM.
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