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  1. #21
    Senior Member hunter2678's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how much speed do you think it takes to make up for a 5 yard misjudge?
    What are the parameters by which you arrive at an acceptable speed...?
    In addition, what yardage is the maximum that you would consider making a shot on a game animal under ideal conditions...?
    Not picking on you but I want to run a little experiment and your comment spurred me to ask...
    Oh I'd say at least 330+ havi.... ..you're def settin him up aren't ya!?
    Last edited by hunter2678; 08-12-2009 at 10:25 AM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter2678 View Post
    Oh I'd say at least 330+ havi.... ..you're def settin him up aren't ya!?

    Not really...

    If you want we can go with the 330 fps.. but vs what speed? In other words if I have a bow that shoots a 400 grain arrow at 270 fps.. how much would I have to increase the speed to makeup for a 5 yard misjudge in distance... would 60 fps do it?
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  3. #23
    Senior Member hunter2678's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    Not really...

    If you want we can go with the 330 fps.. but vs what speed? In other words if I have a bow that shoots a 400 grain arrow at 270 fps.. how much would I have to increase the speed to makeup for a 5 yard misjudge in distance... would 60 fps do it?

    To save him the trouble at 270 youd need no more than a few fps if any.....once you get above 280 fps the drop is pretty much negligable in most hunting situations..unless you shoot a 500 gn arrow or heavier then you may run into some yardage situations.

    I use a single fixed pin dead on at 25-27 and am shooting around 290 fps so I dont really have a dog in this fight..
    Last edited by hunter2678; 08-12-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter2678 View Post
    To save him the trouble at 270 youd need no more than a few fps if any.....once you get above 280 fps the drop is pretty much negligable in most hunting situations..unless you shoot a 500 gn arrow or heavier then you may run into some yardage situations.

    I use a single fixed pin dead on at 25-27 and am shooting around 290 fps so I dont really have a dog in this fight..

    You're just no fun...
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  5. #25
    Senior Member hunter2678's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    You're just no fun...
    the supense was killin me!!!
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  6. #26
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    If the misjudge is between 25-30 yards and you are shooting 270 fps I'm thinking like 3-5% increase. If we are talking about a misjudge between 40-45 yards I am thinking 10 -15% increase would be needed to makeup for that drop. I am sure there must be a formula to figure out exactly how much. In any case if any of you figure out a way to get 15% more fps from the same bow, be sure to let me know.

  7. #27
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter2678 View Post
    the supense was killin me!!!
    Roughly the 5 yard drop at 20 to 25 for an 400 grain arrow fired at 270 fps is -2.05" at 330fps the same weight arrow would drop -1.03" Difference approximately 1"

    500 grain arrow at 250fps... 20 to 25 drop 2.56" 500/310 = -1.3"


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  8. #28
    Senior Member kebees4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how much speed do you think it takes to make up for a 5 yard misjudge?
    What are the parameters by which you arrive at an acceptable speed...?
    In addition, what yardage is the maximum that you would consider making a shot on a game animal under ideal conditions...?
    Not picking on you but I want to run a little experiment and your comment spurred me to ask...
    We were just playing around with arrows in my sons bow Sunday at the range.He is shooting 52# and 27" draw. With a 320 grain light speed he was shooting 252 FPS. With a 260 grain Gold Tip the speed went to 278 FPS. We took both arrows to range and the Gold Tip arrow shot about 5" higher at 30 yards. This is actual results not a computer program making estimates. Now that don't answer the question you asked but the heavier or slower the arrow the more the arc you get when you shoot. The flatter the arrow flies the less chance of a mistake.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kebees4 View Post
    We were just playing around with arrows in my sons bow Sunday at the range.He is shooting 52# and 27" draw. With a 320 grain light speed he was shooting 252 FPS. With a 260 grain Gold Tip the speed went to 278 FPS. We took both arrows to range and the Gold Tip arrow shot about 5" higher at 30 yards. This is actual results not a computer program making estimates. Now that don't answer the question you asked but the heavier or slower the arrow the more the arc you get when you shoot. The flatter the arrow flies the less chance of a mistake.

    now go sight his bow in with the heavy arrows to hit dead on at 20... then shoot and mark the drop.. then re-sight in with the lighter arrow and re do the test.. the difference won't be what you expect..

    Comparing th drop between a heavy arrow and a light arrow without resighting proves nothing... except that you need to resight...
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  10. #30
    Senior Member kebees4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    now go sight his bow in with the heavy arrows to hit dead on at 20... then shoot and mark the drop.. then re-sight in with the lighter arrow and re do the test.. the difference won't be what you expect..

    Comparing th drop between a heavy arrow and a light arrow without resighting proves nothing... except that you need to resight...
    It show how much more arc is is the arrows path at different speeds. 20 yards is too close to do it at. We also shot a crossbow Sunday with 2219 arrows at and 60 grains difference with about 3" difference in impact at 20 yards. I will do what you want over the weekend when I have the time. Yes I can sight in the lighter or heavier to hit right but the heavier and slower the arrow the more it will arc during its travel. So the flatter it travels the more room there is for error.
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  11. #31
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kebees4 View Post
    It show how much more arc is is the arrows path at different speeds. 20 yards is too close to do it at. We also shot a crossbow Sunday with 2219 arrows at and 60 grains difference with about 3" difference in impact at 20 yards. I will do what you want over the weekend when I have the time. Yes I can sight in the lighter or heavier to hit right but the heavier and slower the arrow the more it will arc during its travel. So the flatter it travels the more room there is for error.
    Try it.. the difference in drop from one setup to another isn't nearly as great as some imagine..

    By the way those estimates... from the program are good enough to build sight tapes to 100 yards..
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  12. #32
    Senior Member kebees4's Avatar
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    We use sight tapes and they are pretty good. On the bow I was talking about there is about 1/4" between 20 & 30 yard on the tape shooting the 320 grain arrow. I will get out this weekend and zero in both arrows at 20 then shoot 25 & 30 without moving the sight. We was a a 3D shoot last night and we were shooting from a tree stand at 2 targets. 1 was 20 yards and other was 26 yards he didn't adjust sight score 12 ring first target and ended up below 10 ring 2nd shot. So the 6 yards difference caused the arrow to drop 2.5" -3.5". That was only 1 shot and need to shoot groups to be sure. He shoots the heavier arrows because the light arrow are close to the lower limits for that bow.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member kebees4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    Try it.. the difference in drop from one setup to another isn't nearly as great as some imagine..

    By the way those estimates... from the program are good enough to build sight tapes to 100 yards..
    Did the test today. Zero bow in at 20 then shot 25 then 30 with the following results. The bow is a diamond liberty at 52# draw.

    First arrows were Easton 400 light speeds 28.5" long 320 grains traveling 252 FPS
    Zero at 20 yards
    3.5" low at 25 yards
    5.25" low at 30 yards

    Then shot goldtip 500 ultra light 27" long 260 grains traveling 278 FPS
    Zero at 20
    1/2" low at 25
    2" low at 30

    So what I am saying is the faster the arrow the flatter arrow path and then you can make more of an error judging distance and still in the kill zone. Even at 3D if you was to judge distance 20 yards and it was really 30 you would probably still end up in the 10 ring with the lighter faster arrow. The heavier arrow you would be lucky to end up with an 8.
    I hope I made since with this.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kebees4 View Post
    Did the test today. Zero bow in at 20 then shot 25 then 30 with the following results. The bow is a diamond liberty at 52# draw.

    First arrows were Easton 400 light speeds 28.5" long 320 grains traveling 252 FPS
    Zero at 20 yards
    3.5" low at 25 yards
    5.25" low at 30 yards

    Then shot goldtip 500 ultra light 27" long 260 grains traveling 278 FPS
    Zero at 20
    1/2" low at 25
    2" low at 30

    So what I am saying is the faster the arrow the flatter arrow path and then you can make more of an error judging distance and still in the kill zone. Even at 3D if you was to judge distance 20 yards and it was really 30 you would probably still end up in the 10 ring with the lighter faster arrow. The heavier arrow you would be lucky to end up with an 8.
    I hope I made since with this.
    I would disagree with the 260 at 278 numbers, but that's only based on 50 years of experience.. since I wasn't there to witness it.. 26 fps is not enough to make that extreme of a difference at those ranges without other influence.. and I don't need a program to tell me that..
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  15. #35
    Senior Member kebees4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how much speed do you think it takes to make up for a 5 yard misjudge?
    What are the parameters by which you arrive at an acceptable speed...?
    In addition, what yardage is the maximum that you would consider making a shot on a game animal under ideal conditions...?
    Not picking on you but I want to run a little experiment and your comment spurred me to ask...
    I don't have an acceptable speed. All I am saying is the faster the arrow the less arc it will have and less a chance of mistake. The arrows I shot was 60 FPS different and made a huge difference in trajectory.
    Most shots I take are less than 30 yards that I take but under ideal conditions I am confident I could make 40 - 45 yard shots. Where I hunt that is not going to happen. From what I am told go to some western states you better be ready to 50 -60 yards. That is a long shot with a bow.
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  16. #36
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kebees4 View Post
    I don't have an acceptable speed. All I am saying is the faster the arrow the less arc it will have and less a chance of mistake. The arrows I shot was 60 FPS different and made a huge difference in trajectory.
    Most shots I take are less than 30 yards that I take but under ideal conditions I am confident I could make 40 - 45 yard shots. Where I hunt that is not going to happen. From what I am told go to some western states you better be ready to 50 -60 yards. That is a long shot with a bow.
    60 fps will no doubt make a difference in trajectory.. all I'm saying is the difference is as spectacular as some might think..
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  17. #37
    Senior Member kebees4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    60 fps will no doubt make a difference in trajectory.. all I'm saying is the difference is as spectacular as some might think..
    Back to arrow weight. What I originally was saying is you don't need heavy arrows. With the lighter faster arrows they shoot flatter and can make more error in judging distance. The lighter faster arrow had almost no drop compared heavier arrow. It was 2" compared to 5". My sons bow that shot 203 FPS last year blew through both of a bucks shoulder blades. His arrows weight 316 grains out of a 40# Bear Odyssey 2. It doesn't take a lot of KE to get it done.
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  18. #38
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kebees4 View Post
    Back to arrow weight. What I originally was saying is you don't need heavy arrows. With the lighter faster arrows they shoot flatter and can make more error in judging distance. The lighter faster arrow had almost no drop compared heavier arrow. It was 2" compared to 5". My sons bow that shot 203 FPS last year blew through both of a bucks shoulder blades. His arrows weight 316 grains out of a 40# Bear Odyssey 2. It doesn't take a lot of KE to get it done.
    Ok... I'll stick with heavier arrows.. even for 3-D
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  19. #39
    Senior Member sgmathews92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kebees4 View Post
    It doesn't take a lot of KE to get it done.
    Just proper shot placement

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