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  1. #21
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntelk View Post
    Allan,

    maybe we should have stayed on the other topic, at least we were engaging some conversation....where did everyone go?

    Ok, here is a question for y'all..


    When you adjust the bow's draw length do you draw to a predetermined position on your face ( ie. Knuckle behind jawbone) and adjust your head position as needed to accommodate your string reference points.


    Or do you set the bow so that the string hits your preferred reference points (ie. tip of the nose etc.) then adjust the loop and if necessary change the release nose length to get the best scapula position.
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    Ok, here is a question for y'all..


    When you adjust the bow's draw length do you draw to a predetermined position on your face ( ie. Knuckle behind jawbone) and adjust your head position as needed to accommodate your string reference points.


    Or do you set the bow so that the string hits your preferred reference points (ie. tip of the nose etc.) then adjust the loop and if necessary change the release nose length to get the best scapula position.
    I used to adjust the bow's DL for a specific spot on my face. But I recently have been reworking my form and it seems to work better to adjust the bow's DL for the position of my draw side scapula & my alignment - draw arm in line with the arrow. Once I get these set, the face anchor and peep height follow.

    After reading some of your posts, I plan to try adjusting the loop. I've never done that before and it seems like a good idea. Now, once I have the bow's DL set for my form, I do have to dip my head a little to get my nose on the string. I'm shooting better than ever right now (but still have a ways to go), so I won't do this until indoor season is over.

    What should I look for when adjusting DL & loop length?

    Thanks,
    Allen

  3. #23
    Senior Member Huntelk's Avatar
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    I use this one:

    Or do you set the bow so that the string hits your preferred reference points (ie. tip of the nose etc.) then adjust the loop and if necessary change the release nose length to get the best scapula position.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Huntelk's Avatar
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    Default Question for you Javi:

    Which method better describes how you would coach an archer?

    A. Your rear anchor is your peep. Pressure added to the string with the nose/face will create inconsistency. Locking your release hand into your jawbone will create torque on the string and not allow a straight reaward pull.

    B. The more reference points used the more consistent you will be. Peep, string touching tip of nose, kisser button, knuckle to jawbone, etc.

  5. #25
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntelk View Post
    Which method better describes how you would coach an archer?

    A. Your rear anchor is your peep. Pressure added to the string with the nose/face will create inconsistency. Locking your release hand into your jawbone will create torque on the string and not allow a straight reaward pull.

    B. The more reference points used the more consistent you will be. Peep, string touching tip of nose, kisser button, knuckle to jawbone, etc.

    Actually for the most part both describe how I coach to a degree with the exception of the knuckle to the jawbone and the kisser button neither of which I recommend. And your rear anchor really should be the position of your scapula not your peep or an arbitrary hand position.

    In fact if allowed your body will tell you the best position for your release hand.
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  6. #26
    Senior Member Huntelk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    Actually for the most part both describe how I coach to a degree with the exception of the knuckle to the jawbone and the kisser button neither of which I recommend. And your rear anchor really should be the position of your scapula not your peep or an arbitrary hand position.

    In fact if allowed your body will tell you the best position for your release hand.
    Well I guess we will have to find something else to debate since we are both on the same page here.

    There are some pretty solid competitors and coaches that lean heavily toward one side or the other of the styles I mentioned. I used to lean more toward the "B" option (minus the kisser), but after listening to Tim Strickland went much more toward style "A" and softened up the face contact considerably.

    "Softening" up the face contact seems to tighten up the left and rights-especially at longer distances. It always bothers me seeing archers "dig" into the face/anchor so hard their ear is wadded up and turning white from the circulation being cut off.

    I don't see much value in the string to nose contact with archers that "root around" for their anchor. I believe that once your eye focuses on the target during your pre-draw that your head position should remain static as you bring the bow to you at full draw. My thought is that if you must twist, turn and tilt your head to nestle in to anchor that something is out of alignment or your bow simply doesn't fit.

    I am not a fan of the kisser since the part of the face they contact (lips) are not static at all. I know some guys like them though. Reo and Griv both use a kisser indicator of sorts-it obviously works for them, but I'll pass.

  7. #27
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    I teach setting your bow arm with the shoulder/arm in the naturally angled position which results in the shoulder being down and rolled forward and the forearm in a natural position. Getting the bow hand into a position in the bow handle that will minimize the amount of applied torque and muscle use is very important before any draw length adjustments be made. This normally produces a stance which is open to the target line. To describe the entire process of alignment and balance of muscle use is another chapter for another time.

    To begin the process of fitting the draw length, draw the bow to the wall with the drawing hand approximately one inch from the face and then bring the hand straight into the face with the head upright and in a relaxed position. At this point I am not looking for a rear anchor only in adjusting the bow to fit the archer’s desired front end reference points. For instance if the desired points are the tip of the nose and the corner of the mouth then the “BOW’S” draw length is adjusted while paying careful attention to having the arrow parallel to the shoulders and the archer aiming at a shoulder high target. Carefully observe that the archer does not allow the arm to collapse, the bow shoulder to raise or tilt the head to meet the string as this will degrade the results. The top of the bow hand should be at approximately shoulder height so that a line drawn across the points of the shoulders and extended to the bow hand would be parallel to the arrow shaft, if the arrow is angled to this line adjust the rear anchor point to correct.

    To determine the archer’s rear anchor or at least the best starting point that will allow a full range of motion for maintaining the bow at full draw while using the larger muscles of the back is simple. Position the archer in proper form as if holding a bow at full draw, then have them close their eyes and bring the back of the release hand to their face eight or ten times as rapidly as they can. Have them hold the last and note its position, now have them squeeze the point of their shoulder blade toward the spine and note the range of motion and the alignment of the elbow to the target line. This is the body’s natural anchor, simply adjust the d-loop and if necessary the length of the release nose to replicate this position. The height of the elbow is naturally going to vary from individual based on the length of their arm’s segments. But the height of the anchor is based on producing a parallel relationship between the shoulders and the arrow shaft.

    There are several other individual steps to fitting the bow to the shooter such as how the handle feels in the hand and how the bow holds on the target but until the archer has refined their form it is virtually impossible to continue with repeatable results. And as their form becomes refined the draw length of the bow may need tweaking slightly along with the loop length as they refine the backend of their draw.
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    I teach setting your bow arm with the shoulder/arm in the naturally angled position which results in the shoulder being down and rolled forward and the forearm in a natural position. Getting the bow hand into a position in the bow handle that will minimize the amount of applied torque and muscle use is very important before any draw length adjustments be made. This normally produces a stance which is open to the target line. To describe the entire process of alignment and balance of muscle use is another chapter for another time.

    To begin the process of fitting the draw length, draw the bow to the wall with the drawing hand approximately one inch from the face and then bring the hand straight into the face with the head upright and in a relaxed position. At this point I am not looking for a rear anchor only in adjusting the bow to fit the archer’s desired front end reference points. For instance if the desired points are the tip of the nose and the corner of the mouth then the “BOW’S” draw length is adjusted while paying careful attention to having the arrow parallel to the shoulders and the archer aiming at a shoulder high target. Carefully observe that the archer does not allow the arm to collapse, the bow shoulder to raise or tilt the head to meet the string as this will degrade the results. The top of the bow hand should be at approximately shoulder height so that a line drawn across the points of the shoulders and extended to the bow hand would be parallel to the arrow shaft, if the arrow is angled to this line adjust the rear anchor point to correct.

    To determine the archer’s rear anchor or at least the best starting point that will allow a full range of motion for maintaining the bow at full draw while using the larger muscles of the back is simple. Position the archer in proper form as if holding a bow at full draw, then have them close their eyes and bring the back of the release hand to their face eight or ten times as rapidly as they can. Have them hold the last and note its position, now have them squeeze the point of their shoulder blade toward the spine and note the range of motion and the alignment of the elbow to the target line. This is the body’s natural anchor, simply adjust the d-loop and if necessary the length of the release nose to replicate this position. The height of the elbow is naturally going to vary from individual based on the length of their arm’s segments. But the height of the anchor is based on producing a parallel relationship between the shoulders and the arrow shaft.

    There are several other individual steps to fitting the bow to the shooter such as how the handle feels in the hand and how the bow holds on the target but until the archer has refined their form it is virtually impossible to continue with repeatable results. And as their form becomes refined the draw length of the bow may need tweaking slightly along with the loop length as they refine the backend of their draw.


    This is really good stuff!!

    On the rolled shoulder, is there an indicator that tells you if it's right? Some of the Olympic archers, Vic Wunderle comes to mind, have their shoulder rolled way over. I don't think that any of the compound archers come close to this. How far over is the most stable?

    Thanks,
    Allen

  9. #29
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen View Post
    This is really good stuff!!

    On the rolled shoulder, is there an indicator that tells you if it's right? Some of the Olympic archers, Vic Wunderle comes to mind, have their shoulder rolled way over. I don't think that any of the compound archers come close to this. How far over is the most stable?

    Thanks,
    Allen
    Many schools of thought on that one….
    I’m not sure that an individual can really be certain without a knowledgeable coach to help but a good starting point would be to use the door frame again and try different positions while leaning against the door with a reasonable amount of weight. It will become quickly evident when you find THE spot that all tension leaves the shoulder and trapezius and the shoulder is down.

    After the initial attempt at the above exercise, stand as if shooting your bow with the new stance (shoulder/arm angle) and hold the arm out with the bow hand at shoulder level. Raise the hand as if to make the universal sign for STOP, note that your thumb is at approximately 45 degrees from horizontal. Relax your fingers and let them fall naturally, note that the knuckle line is also approximately 45 degrees from horizontal. Now slowly rotate your wrist/forearm so that your knuckle line and thumb are more vertical, while doing this take note of the shoulder rotation this causes... Return your forearm/wrist to the relaxed position and using this hand position, go back to the door frame for another try at finding THAT spot where the tension leaves your bow shoulder and trapezius.

    I think you’ll find your answer around there somewhere... but take note this only addresses the front end, the same theory applies to the back side. However the procedure is much different for finding the correct shoulder/arm position for the rear.

    Darn, I need a proof reader/editor in the worse way.
    Last edited by JAVI; 03-01-2010 at 12:14 PM.
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  10. #30
    Senior Member Huntelk's Avatar
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    Very well done Javi. This should be very helpful to archers that are still searching for the right fit.

    I think most of the better archers have the bow arm side of things you mentioned figured out but they struggle with the release side.

    It is more diffucult to get the release side right on your own IMO. Video taping yourself will help tremendously, but only if your eye is trained what to look for. It is also very time consuming to get the various camera angles and then evaluate, then make changes, then video....

    Having a coach right there on the spot makes life sooo much easier!

  11. #31
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntelk View Post
    Very well done Javi. This should be very helpful to archers that are still searching for the right fit.

    I think most of the better archers have the bow arm side of things you mentioned figured out but they struggle with the release side.

    It is more diffucult to get the release side right on your own IMO. Video taping yourself will help tremendously, but only if your eye is trained what to look for. It is also very time consuming to get the various camera angles and then evaluate, then make changes, then video....

    Having a coach right there on the spot makes life sooo much easier!

    Yes the back side is more difficult to correctly position but it can be done with reasonable success if you are patient and have an even more long-suffering assistant with a camera. But that’s probably another topic for another discussion.

    And yes having a coach who is knowledgeable and can articulate the information in a way you can understand is very important..
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  12. #32
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    One note for those trying this at home.....


    The shoulder WILL fall into position NATURALLY.... DO NOT FORCE IT DOWN.


    And DO NOT PUSH with the arm/shoulder... not even a little bit..
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  13. #33
    Senior Member Huntelk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    One note for those trying this at home.....


    The shoulder WILL fall into position NATURALLY.... DO NOT FORCE IT DOWN.


    And DO NOT PUSH with the arm/shoulder... not even a little bit..
    Ok, ok Javi.....don't be giving it all up here I have to shoot against some of these guys !

  14. #34
    Senior Member JAVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntelk View Post
    Ok, ok Javi.....don't be giving it all up here I have to shoot against some of these guys !
    Don’t worry, they won’t believe me…
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  15. #35
    Senior Member Huntelk's Avatar
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    Quitely "not believing you" is a whole lot better than if we were on that "other" site.

    This thread would be 7 pages long with 15 guys calling us

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntelk View Post
    Quitely "not believing you" is a whole lot better than if we were on that "other" site.

    This thread would be 7 pages long with 15 guys calling us
    That's why I ain't over there anylonger..
    Mike "Javi" Cooper

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
    That's why I ain't over there anylonger..
    Scr@# the other site. I give you guys tons of props. Very well worded and I do agree with the release side of things being the toughest. I have more trouble with that than I do anything else.

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