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  1. #1

    Default Stabilizer stiffness? something to ponder

    Stabilizer stiffness something to ponder
    Ok now that we have all read and understand the theory and physics behind super stiff stabilizers i was thinking over my setup the other day and can say they havnt had any impact whats so ever on my daily scores. still a mix bag of 59X's 60's and some 58s. As I sat at work reading lannys mental management book for the 100th time I began to wonder. Ok if the super stiff bars are supposed to resist my bow from moving as the arrow is deployed through the bow and im supposed to allow my sub-consious mind control the shot and make the minut adjustments it needs to put the dot back on the X. Isnt the stiff stabilizers which are resisting bow movement upon release also resisting my mind to be able to move it to where its needs to be during the shot process. We all know that not every shot the dot isnt on the X and as you trust your shot and allow your sub consious mind do what its supposed to do it will put that arrow right smack dab in the X. SO as I ponder this at work once again did i waste $300 on some stiff carbon tubes and is it actually working against my sub-con mind trying to do its job. personally I think its hype and just made alot more vibration. Wish I hadnt sold my doinker elite

  2. #2
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    For the subconscious mind to work at top performance it has to have all the parameters of the system. Anytime something is changed the subconscious mind has to reprogram for the new parameters. It would seem that the best system is one in which the parameters do not create a critical condition which means that the subconscious mind doesn't have any margin for error. So if you can find a system that gives the subconscious mind the largest margin for error then you have a great system.

    I don't have a clue which system is going to be the best for the subconscious mind.

  3. #3

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    I understand what your saying though the stiffer stabilizers dont really make the bow hold any better that say a doinker elite with the bow balanced the same. In theory it only makes the bow resist movement better during the violent mechanics of a bow moving the arrow. So if the sub consious mind is reprogramed to this craze of stiff stabilizers resisting movement during the shot wouldnt it cause you do make harder movements to move the dot back to the X. Possibly over correcting? IDK just throwing this out there. Id like to hear what Lanny says about it.

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    The stiffer stabs may help in the flex reaction as the bow is sending off the arrow versus other stabs flexing instead of holding or trying to correct or stabilize the violent reaction of the bow while the arrow is still in contact with the bowstring. This may be all true and theoretically correct but I would think that the amount of correction and itís reaction is different from one bow to the next, this applying to how rigid and capable each individual bow can handle the shot in which is also dictated by the arrow weight in relation to poundage allowing a certain amount of energy to be absorb by the arrow and string components versus the energy transferring into the riser and stab, so each bow and itís setup will warrant a different reaction in relation to stabilizer correction.

    For some the very stiff Bee Stinger trend will improve the overall performance and average scores while shot under pressure and some bows will show less improvement overall because of needing less to carry the same amount of forgiveness.

    All this said some folks will see a higher score average thus building self confidence versus others not seeing as much improvement in their equipment and their confidence or mental game.

    Just my opinion.


    JDX--
    The only one that is your competitor is the air between your ears!



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    Default i'm just new for 3d

    i had brought a set stab call bernie x-rod control freak carbon set...are they will made for 3d.i order 35" and 2/14" side rod. cost me $370 with some weight.
    i have a mathew rezeen 6.5 set 27" 65lb. qua rest maxima 350 arrows sure loc challenger 400 eyegle eye little dot lens&scope. thanks

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    One of my concerns with the super stiff rods with lots of weight is if the bow can stand up to the added stresses.

    One of the guys I shoot with uses long rods with lots of weight, recently found that his stabilizer bushing had become loose. On one of my old bows the threads on the steel stabilizer bushing became "funnelled" (for lack of a better word). I have to use a longer stud on the stabilizer to get enough tread to hold the stabilizer.

    On most bows, there is not a lot of metal around the stabilizer bushing. And that metal is aluminum. Aluminum is a super material & makes a great riser, but it's not as strong as steel.

    We've all seen the slow motion videos that show the violent vibrations of a bow when it's shot. The stiffer the rod is and the more weight on it, the greater the stresses on the riser. I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that risers need to be designed to withstand the super stiff rods and heavy weights. A hunting bow doesn't need this and most target bows are just hunting bows with pretty colors and an extra stabilizer bushing or two.

    On the other hand, except for the two bushing problems above, I've never heard of a riser failing at the stabilizer.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    Allen

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    One other thing I ve noticed with the super stiff and ridged bars is all the extra vibration has to go somewhere. On me it goes into my bow elbow.

    I also baught into the long front and long side bar fad. After shooting them most of the summer and fall, I was putting up some real disappointing scores and had one real sore elbow, I put the hack saw to work on those bars and cut them down to size. My scores jump up acouple of points with the first cut so I got bolder and cut even more off the bars. Now I'm at 30 inch front and 10 inch side and finally shooting last years averages again and my elbow didn't hurt after shooting a round.

    So much for money well spent.

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    Senior Member MeanV2's Avatar
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    Sore Elbows is Not Good!!

    Dan
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    MAITLAND BOW DEALER
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Brown Hornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator eye View Post
    One other thing I ve noticed with the super stiff and ridged bars is all the extra vibration has to go somewhere. On me it goes into my bow elbow.

    I also baught into the long front and long side bar fad. After shooting them most of the summer and fall, I was putting up some real disappointing scores and had one real sore elbow, I put the hack saw to work on those bars and cut them down to size. My scores jump up acouple of points with the first cut so I got bolder and cut even more off the bars. Now I'm at 30 inch front and 10 inch side and finally shooting last years averages again and my elbow didn't hurt after shooting a round.

    So much for money well spent.

    Sounds to me more like you had too much weight on your rods. Going to a stiff rod isn't going to help anything. You still need to set them up correctly. But not everyone can handle a ton of weight or need it nor does everyone need a super long rod.

  10. #10

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    Im really beginning t5 believe that a moderate stiff rod and having the correct length with vibration control is the best all around set up. As long as it isnt a super wimpy rod with a ton of weight on it. Is there any high speed video's from B stinger of their target stick proving that it does in fact hold the bow in place better during the shot. in their words getting the weights into play faster? I couldnt find any during my search just one of thier hunting stab which didnt really prove anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Hornet View Post
    Sounds to me more like you had too much weight on your rods. Going to a stiff rod isn't going to help anything. You still need to set them up correctly. But not everyone can handle a ton of weight or need it nor does everyone need a super long rod.
    I tried to drop down on weight but then my sight picture started jumping around. My bows are just under 8 pounds which is where they've been at for the last 3 years. I guess a super long rod(36"front and 15"side) just didn't fit me.(not that a 30" front and 10" side are short)
    I will say that I like the effect the stiff rods have on my sight picture but some where between my sight picture and my release something would go bad. Not really sure what the problem was but once I hacked off a few inches from the rods it went away, works for me.

    And most importantly is my elbow feels good for the first time in months.

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    Senior Member Brown Hornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator eye View Post
    I tried to drop down on weight but then my sight picture started jumping around. My bows are just under 8 pounds which is where they've been at for the last 3 years. I guess a super long rod(36"front and 15"side) just didn't fit me.(not that a 30" front and 10" side are short)
    I will say that I like the effect the stiff rods have on my sight picture but some where between my sight picture and my release something would go bad. Not really sure what the problem was but once I hacked off a few inches from the rods it went away, works for me.

    And most importantly is my elbow feels good for the first time in months.
    You can't go changing because others do. A long rod isn't for everyone. heck Jesse B will not shoot any rod over 30" or so. Me I don't like anything shorter then 30" and prefer something in the 33-35" range. Greg is trying to get me to shoot something closer to 30" now that I am shooting a Katera XL for indoors and field...my rod is the same length as my bow. But if I go shorter I have to go up in weight to give me the same balance/feel and that's not a good option for me. I am shooting 4/5 oz on my front bar and 12 oz on the side rod but I have it kicked out more then most do. I can go up to about 15oz if need be but I have to build up to it slowly. I also can't shoot a side rod longer then 12"..I could go back to my 10" rod though without a problem.

    The key is finding the correct angle for your side rod and the right weight balance. It takes a lot of playing and time but you also have to know what your looking at when your on target and what changes to make.

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    Senior Member Brown Hornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wihoyt View Post
    Im really beginning t5 believe that a moderate stiff rod and having the correct length with vibration control is the best all around set up. As long as it isnt a super wimpy rod with a ton of weight on it. Is there any high speed video's from B stinger of their target stick proving that it does in fact hold the bow in place better during the shot. in their words getting the weights into play faster? I couldnt find any during my search just one of thier hunting stab which didnt really prove anything.
    If you have problems with vibration in this day and age with vibration your hyper extending your bow arm or your cam rotation isn't right...with the rotation being the major factor. Or you have a death grip on your bow. Having shot a PE with 3000s and C2s and one with 2000s and spirals both with 330 grain arrows on 60 lbs my bow had more jump because of the design but still no extra vibration. Now that I'm shooting a Katera XL for target the bow does virtually nothing. I feel no more vibration than I do with anything else and have no jump at all upon the shot. There were pictures taken of me shooting last summer and the arrow is on the way to the target my release hand is way behind my head and unfolding from the shot and the bow looks like I am still at full draw. I have about 10 pictures with my release hand in various positions and the bow is in the same position in everyone of them.

    They don't need the high speed video but yes people have done it....but it isn't going to show you what you think it will it can't because there is a human factor to it put a bow in a Hooter Shooter and it isn't going to move eventually....but yes a B-Stinger will slow your movement down faster and maintain it better....that's why I switched because I saw that the 1st time I drew my bow back with one on it. The proof is in your sight picture.

    The problem is that most people think you can just buy a new bow, release or in this case stab and all things are gonna be roses going forward. If your bow isn't setup correctly...with draw length being the MOST IMPORTANT factor and I don't mean "my draw is 28" and I have a 28" bow either"....and your rods aren't setup and balanced correctly for your shot....you CAN NOT balance a bow correctly without shooting it or having a side rod mount that is adjustable. Your still not going to hold or shoot worth a darn just like you didn't before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Hornet View Post
    If you have problems with vibration in this day and age with vibration your hyper extending your bow arm or your cam rotation isn't right...with the rotation being the major factor. Or you have a death grip on your bow. Having shot a PE with 3000s and C2s and one with 2000s and spirals both with 330 grain arrows on 60 lbs my bow had more jump because of the design but still no extra vibration. Now that I'm shooting a Katera XL for target the bow does virtually nothing. I feel no more vibration than I do with anything else and have no jump at all upon the shot. There were pictures taken of me shooting last summer and the arrow is on the way to the target my release hand is way behind my head and unfolding from the shot and the bow looks like I am still at full draw. I have about 10 pictures with my release hand in various positions and the bow is in the same position in everyone of them.

    They don't need the high speed video but yes people have done it....but it isn't going to show you what you think it will it can't because there is a human factor to it put a bow in a Hooter Shooter and it isn't going to move eventually....but yes a B-Stinger will slow your movement down faster and maintain it better....that's why I switched because I saw that the 1st time I drew my bow back with one on it. The proof is in your sight picture.

    The problem is that most people think you can just buy a new bow, release or in this case stab and all things are gonna be roses going forward. If your bow isn't setup correctly...with draw length being the MOST IMPORTANT factor and I don't mean "my draw is 28" and I have a 28" bow either"....and your rods aren't setup and balanced correctly for your shot....you CAN NOT balance a bow correctly without shooting it or having a side rod mount that is adjustable. Your still not going to hold or shoot worth a darn just like you didn't before.

    Maybe you don't notice the extra vibration a stiff rod produce because you switched to a bow that was made more for hunting and was built to be vibration free where as not a lot of thought is put into most target bows to be vibration free. In fact I like a little feed back from my target bows, helps me feel that perfect shot.
    I'm thinking I need to add a little rubber something or other to my rods just to help take the bite out of them. Oh and yes, my bow is in time and tune and all that jazz that helps produce extra vibration.

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    Senior Member Brown Hornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator eye View Post
    Maybe you don't notice the extra vibration a stiff rod produce because you switched to a bow that was made more for hunting and was built to be vibration free where as not a lot of thought is put into most target bows to be vibration free. In fact I like a little feed back from my target bows, helps me feel that perfect shot.
    I'm thinking I need to add a little rubber something or other to my rods just to help take the bite out of them. Oh and yes, my bow is in time and tune and all that jazz that helps produce extra vibration.
    You must have missed the part were I said I shot a PE with 2000s and 3000s before I switched to the Katera XL

    That would be a Pro Elite.....way more jump and vibration with 3000 limbs then just about every bow in production right now. I shot that bow for a year with C2s and the ORIGINAL XL B-Stinger....remember the review I did on them almost 2 years go to the day on AT. Only a handful of people even knew that they would make a long bar before that post....then switched to a PE with spirals and 2000s last Feb and shot it until May.....I have plenty of time with a bow with vibration.

    the rod doesn't produce vibration....the bow does. The forward jump comes from the limb length and limb angle. That's why a CE with 2000s has more jump and vibration then an Alphaburner and a VE. :wink: Either way you can still control the vibration by having correct cam rotation...even with my PEs I still didn't feel a ton of vibration only recoil/forward jump. All I had on my bow were limb savers and the rubber piece in the riser. The sorbathin (sp) in the rod sucks up plenty...if it doesn't then add the barrel deresenator (or whatever it's called)...which works MUCH better then a bow jax... and a or a Sims Stab Enhancer. A rod like a Doinker, Posten or Bernie's doesn't suck up any more vibration it's just that the softer carbon bouncing all over doesn't allow you to feel it as much because it's bouncing so you feel the wiggle instead.

    Think of the stiffer, higher material quality carbon rod in terms of fishing rods if you fish....does a $50-100 Dicks or BPS rod allow you to feel the things and as fast as a high in St Croix or G Loomis or Kistler rod? NOT a chance.

  16. #16

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    The noticed vibration isnt really the direction this post was supposed to go. I was thowing out there that the restistance that they have in not allowing the bow to move while the arrow is leaving the bow. Is it working against your subconsious mind in making the necessary corrections it needs to when the dot isnt on the X. Bow holding/aiming will be the same with any brand of stabilizer given the same length and weight. We all have read and understand their claim on the stiff bar theory. Many of us me included had bought into the claims to find out it didnt make a differance. Brown hornet please dont assume everyone online is an idiot and doesnt know how to set up cam rotation, balance a bow, tune a bow ,tiller tune and how to make it hold. I feel as though you try and talk down to everyone online even though I do enjoy hearing your thoughts. You may not have intended on it to sound like that but I felt as though you think I know notihing about how to set up and shoot.

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    Senior Member Brown Hornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wihoyt View Post
    The noticed vibration isnt really the direction this post was supposed to go. I was thowing out there that the restistance that they have in not allowing the bow to move while the arrow is leaving the bow. Is it working against your subconsious mind in making the necessary corrections it needs to when the dot isnt on the X. Bow holding/aiming will be the same with any brand of stabilizer given the same length and weight. We all have read and understand their claim on the stiff bar theory. Many of us me included had bought into the claims to find out it didnt make a differance. Brown hornet please dont assume everyone online is an idiot and doesnt know how to set up cam rotation, balance a bow, tune a bow ,tiller tune and how to make it hold. I feel as though you try and talk down to everyone online even though I do enjoy hearing your thoughts. You may not have intended on it to sound like that but I felt as though you think I know notihing about how to set up and shoot.
    Not talking down to anyone....and I don't intend it to come across that way...Just making a blanket statement and throwing out ideas and thoughts....I view things as a discussion and take NOTHING personal anyone says UNLESS you make it personal (if you know what I mean ):wink: So if the shoe doesn't fit NEVER take it as being directed to you in that way. :wink: Always take what fits you...your the only one that knows what those things are. If I am gonna bust those chops in that way...you've known me long enough online to know what those post really look like :wink:

    IMO though with the stiffer rods and proper balance etc...aiming is easier far easier actually....when it comes to making adjustments or corrections in aiming. My sight doesn't go NEARLY as far and it is WAAAAYYYY easier to get the dot back to the spot that it should be. I can control my float like never before....when my dot falls off the middle it either goes back by itself from the help of my subconscious or if it gets stuck or I'm having one of those brain dead crappy holding/shooting days I can put it back or put it there to begin with. In fact a lot of my misses are because I am holding/aiming so well that I don't get out of the shot fast enough when it's time to abandon the shot.

    For example....everyone knows I am just your avg target archer. Never burn the world up but don't suck either The other day I shot 55Xs.... this was one of those poor aiming days I spoke of, I had to work my butt off on all but about 5 shots to get the dot in the middle..... One miss was because I drew back in the click the others were because I stayed in the shot to long because I was still in control of my float and can correct my sight when I do have a bobble and put the dot back in the middle....So I stayed with the shot too long at times and boom there goes an X. Before these rods even years ago when I would occasionally hang a good score like this it was mere luck more then anything....those kind of scores were a lot of work and I didn't aim as easy or nearly as good as I do now. My float was HUGE in comparison. I have tried other rods since I started shooting the Premiere bars and the hold isn't the same...even some of the other "stiff" rods and they aren't the same. Last summer I was shooting a buddies bow with other rods on it....the hold was ok for not being a bow set to me. I shot 3 or 4 ends and then took them off and screwed my bars on. Instant difference. Then put his back on and let him shoot the bow and put mine on....all he said was "WOW...what a difference"

    With the weaker or not as stiff rods or even ones like the old Doinker with the weight on the other side of the rubber when I would have those bobbles the stiffness of the rod along with the influence the weight had on the rod....I couldn't get the dot back in the middle anywhere as fast nor would it slow down as much or as fast as it does now....or did the moment I 1st screwed on a stiffer rod. Granted I shoot better then I did 2-3 years ago....but the results were still the same for me as far as what I saw or dealt with while aiming.

    Something I learned a couple summers ago from someone was to dump the rubber connected to the weight. All summer in 09 I shot with a rear Doinker with 3.5-4 oz on it. I would have days when my dot would to just be "buzzing" for lack of a better word. Then a guy in my group told me to dump the rear Doinker...no he wasn't a B-Stinger guy at the time anyway....and I remembered that a buddy of mine who is a multiple time National Champion and SOY mentioned the same thing to me earlier in the year (and he shot Doinkers when he won his titles). I took the Doinker off that night and added the weight back plus what I needed to make up for the rear Doinker. Like magic that little "buzz" hasn't ever been back.

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    This is some good information. I have never understood why anyone would want a rubber do hickey on a stabilizer. I know that some want vibration dampening but all I want is a steady hold and an arrow in the x. If the bow wants to sound like a tuning fork so be it. I never knew that the rubber could cause an unsteady hold but it makes sense. If the rubber flexes and moves you are going to have to correct for this movement which just causes the rubber to move more.

    I have never had the opportunity to swap stabilizers and actually see the difference between different stabilizers. But I have used stabilizers which I made that were very flexible and it took a couple of seconds for it to stop moving after the draw and if you had to put it back on target you had to wait some more for it to stop moving. I think that a stiff stabilizer is good but I don't care what the stabilizer does after the shot. If the stabilizer wants to flex like an arrow being shot that is OK as long as it allows me to hold still while aiming. A stabilizer flexing at the shot is probably a good thing.

    I have heard several people say that they picked up a couple of points after switching stabilizers and I don't think these people are just telling tales.

  19. #19
    Senior Member MeanV2's Avatar
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    If you are hunting less Vibration translates into less noise. I may want rubber on my stabilizer but I don't want it swingin' in the breeze

    Dan
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    This is a good thread. I hope there are more post. I'm in the process of trying the different combinations to improve my aiming. Stabilizer length and weight, side bar verus v bar. There are so many combinations to try. It's wearing me out.
    Hoyt Bows, Shrewd sights, Carter index, Tru Ball hinge, Trophy Taker Rest, Doinker Stabilizers, Carbon Express XJ 27's, Vapor Trail Strings, Nikon Binos.

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