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  1. #21
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    Chris, I agree with you on how easy it is to tune a torque free system. When I first decided to learn to do my own tuning, I was shooting a Sceptor Nitrous X. It took me just a few minutes to get bullet holes. I was wondering about all the fuss about tuning a bow. It was easy!

    I've since learned that cable rod bows are not quite so easy.

    However, ease of tuning is not high on my criteria for a bow. The number one thing is how it feels when I shoot it and even more important, how accurately I can shoot it.

    I still have the Sceptor, and would still be shooting it if I could shoot it as accurately as my ProElite. The PE is a lot more difficult to tune, but I like shooting it and I think I get better scores with it.

    Tuning is something that is done only a couple of times a year. Maybe more if there are problems or you are switching your set up from indoor to 3D or field.
    So ease of tuning not too big a deal when deciding on a new bow.

    I hope the engineers come up with bows that are easy to tune and shoot great, but for me the shooting is a lot more important than the tuning.

    Allen

  2. #22
    Senior Member MeanV2's Avatar
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    I think it is a problem that gets magnified and worsened the shorter bows get. Is a short A to A bow that much of an advantage? How short will they go? I know myself I will stay with bows in the 33" to 35" range. I actually hunted Turkeys out of a blind with my Sentinel a year or so ago. It was not a problem at all. The difference between a 35" and a 31" A to A bow is 2" on each end. Is that a huge advantage? The longer riser has many pluses, but are over looked in the quest for a shorter hunting bow. Are consumers getting caught up in this marketing blitz that shorter is better? Not Me!!


    I do have a problem with companies that introduce technology to the consumer and basically use them as test rats. New tech can be a good thing but Come'On Man get it right before you pit it on the market!!

    Dan
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  3. #23
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    I do understand that a majority of consumers purchasing bows are not concerned with torque, lean, twist, etc. but there are a number of archers who are mindful of this. I do not understand why there is just more of a shoot thru option. Adjustments in cable rods etc is definately an improvement, and to those who aren't interested in a shoot thru option it is a nice alternative. But a company like OK Archery out of Germany offers a cable rod and shoot thru option. I think it is a great idea. TAP (and others) offered a way to retrofit CP bows with the shoot thru roller guard, how much more effort would it have taken for BT to offer both options? I believe that it would have boosted sales for BT...of course I am only basing that on the fact that I would have bought one.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeanV2 View Post
    I think it is a problem that gets magnified and worsened the shorter bows get. Is a short A to A bow that much of an advantage? How short will they go? I know myself I will stay with bows in the 33" to 35" range. I actually hunted Turkeys out of a blind with my Sentinel a year or so ago. It was not a problem at all. The difference between a 35" and a 31" A to A bow is 2" on each end. Is that a huge advantage? The longer riser has many pluses, but are over looked in the quest for a shorter hunting bow. Are consumers getting caught up in this marketing blitz that shorter is better? Not Me!!


    I do have a problem with companies that introduce technology to the consumer and basically use them as test rats. New tech can be a good thing but Come'On Man get it right before you pit it on the market!!

    Dan
    Agreed with all, esp. the last statement. I am leary of buying new tech on a bow in th first year. Seems that the average Joe exposes issues that should have been worked out months before the product hits the market.

  5. #25
    Senior Member MeanV2's Avatar
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    It seems some companies are more concerned about the bottom line versus offering customers viable options and/or a proven product.

    The idea of let's just get the product out there as fast as we can and we'll make changes as necessary is getting old. Especially if you have No customer service.

    Dan




    Quote Originally Posted by alaz View Post
    I do understand that a majority of consumers purchasing bows are not concerned with torque, lean, twist, etc. but there are a number of archers who are mindful of this. I do not understand why there is just more of a shoot thru option. Adjustments in cable rods etc is definately an improvement, and to those who aren't interested in a shoot thru option it is a nice alternative. But a company like OK Archery out of Germany offers a cable rod and shoot thru option. I think it is a great idea. TAP (and others) offered a way to retrofit CP bows with the shoot thru roller guard, how much more effort would it have taken for BT to offer both options? I believe that it would have boosted sales for BT...of course I am only basing that on the fact that I would have bought one.
    Maker of MEANV STRING SUPPRESSORS
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Boone View Post
    Many of the top companies had shoot through risors for good reasons. It is a better mouse trap.
    DB
    York wasn't too successful with their shoot through riser, which looks
    like PSEs' new bow. I guess sometimes good ideas come about before
    people are ready to accept them.

  7. #27
    trust me, I know Rattlinman's Avatar
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    What I want to know is...with all these cable rod bows being so inferior...how in the world did Randy Ulmer and Burley Hall shoot so good back then...little alone now ??

    Seriously...just how "perfect" does a tune have to be ?? Sorry Chris, but it sounds like your buying into the Bowtech hype.

    IMO
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  8. #28
    Senior Member MeanV2's Avatar
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    X2! I Agree!

    Dan



    Quote Originally Posted by Rattlinman View Post
    What I want to know is...with all these cable rod bows being so inferior...how in the world did Randy Ulmer and Burley Hall shoot so good back then...little alone now ??

    Seriously...just how "perfect" does a tune have to be ?? Sorry Chris, but it sounds like your buying into the Bowtech hype.

    IMO
    Maker of MEANV STRING SUPPRESSORS
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  9. #29

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    Everyone is welcome to the opinions, that's the point of the website.

    That said, with the hooter shooter, lasers and testing I've done, I'll stick to my own theories and proven test until someone can prove to me different.
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  10. #30
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    I have a genuine question for you Chris? On some of those trc system bows, like the new Athens Afflixion or the new Martin bows here is my concern...it's tuning related. So lets say I'm shooting the Martin Firecat single cam, right? Ok so I start setting up the bow and I adjust the yoke to remove all the lean out of the idler wheel.... Well then, that idler wheel is now sitting straight up and down when the bow is not at full draw, right?... but if the cables are going to be moving inwards, thus letting off some torque, then the lean on my idler wheel has just changed (because when I set it the cable were farther away from the bows centerline)... at full draw my idler wheel is now leaning (top end away from the bow), right?.... so why would I want to shoot a bow where the idler/cam lean is constantly changing throughout the shot, how is that good for accuracy?....

    Does this make sense?
    Last edited by acesup; 01-21-2011 at 07:46 PM.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Daniel Boone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Everyone is welcome to the opinions, that's the point of the website.

    That said, with the hooter shooter, lasers and testing I've done, I'll stick to my own theories and proven test until someone can prove to me different.
    Why are the guys shooting the Bowtechs in world compition not shooting the flex gaurd? Be interesting to see this year if in the world Fita if there using the flex gaurd system from Bowtech. Will we see pros at Vegas and Indoor nationals shooting the flex gaurd? I want to see these bows in proven hands of the worlds best. I did notice some countries are shooting Bowtech and they have made the shoot offs on archery tv.
    DB
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rattlinman View Post
    What I want to know is...with all these cable rod bows being so inferior...how in the world did Randy Ulmer and Burley Hall shoot so good back then...little alone now ??

    Seriously...just how "perfect" does a tune have to be ?? Sorry Chris, but it sounds like your buying into the Bowtech hype.

    IMO

    At the risk of sounding like an 'old fart', bows back then were a lot longer than 31 or so inches. Once your AtoA length reaches say 36 inches and longer, the torgue effects of the side mounted cable rod are much less noticeable. Just 10 years ago, one rarely heard the complaints about that rod like you do now. The shorter the bow, the greater effect that rod will pose. If the manufacturers are going to continue putting out such short bows, then yes, the need to rethink the cabling system.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Supermag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Boone View Post
    Why are the guys shooting the Bowtechs in world compition not shooting the flex gaurd? Be interesting to see this year if in the world Fita if there using the flex gaurd system from Bowtech. Will we see pros at Vegas and Indoor nationals shooting the flex gaurd? I want to see these bows in proven hands of the worlds best. I did notice some countries are shooting Bowtech and they have made the shoot offs on archery tv.
    DB
    Was the flex guard available on the bows they shot or where they shooting Brigadiers and old Connies? I don't think anyone would trade down to a shorter bow just to get the flex guard. Will be interesting to see if they make an appearance this year with the Specialist using one.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by acesup View Post
    I have a genuine question for you Chris? On some of those trc system bows, like the new Athens Afflixion or the new Martin bows here is my concern...it's tuning related. So lets say I'm shooting the Martin Firecat single cam, right? Ok so I start setting up the bow and I adjust the yoke to remove all the lean out of the idler wheel.... Well then, that idler wheel is now sitting straight up and down when the bow is not at full draw, right?... but if the cables are going to be moving inwards, thus letting off some torque, then the lean on my idler wheel has just changed (because when I set it the cable were farther away from the bows centerline)... at full draw my idler wheel is now leaning (top end away from the bow), right?.... so why would I want to shoot a bow where the idler/cam lean is constantly changing throughout the shot, how is that good for accuracy?....

    Does this make sense?
    I follow what you are saying but these are different issues. The idler needs to be in the "optimal" position. Notice I didn't say perfectly straight. The odds of getting one that will be perfectly straight at rest and perfectly straight a full draw are slim to none.

    So what I want is one that is nearly perfect at rest and nearly perfect at full draw. This will be the least amount of deviation.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The odds of getting one that will be perfectly straight at rest and perfectly straight a full draw are slim to none.

    So what I want is one that is nearly perfect at rest and nearly perfect at full draw. This will be the least amount of deviation.
    I assume you mean a bow with a standard cable gaurd. Ok so if near perfect, and minimal movement is what you are looking for, how can you get less movement with a cable system that actually moves? If you want minimal movement, wouldn't the standard system be best? It seems like there's always gonna be a compromise. Either you have less riser torque, but more cam lean movement, or just the opposite.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I follow what you are saying but these are different issues. The idler needs to be in the "optimal" position. Notice I didn't say perfectly straight. The odds of getting one that will be perfectly straight at rest and perfectly straight a full draw are slim to none.

    So what I want is one that is nearly perfect at rest and nearly perfect at full draw. This will be the least amount of deviation.
    Absolutely...I'm all for seeing companies trying to build a better mouse trap. I do wish there were more shoot thru options...seems like most would agree that is the best system. I think that a number of companies trying to address torque is in response to customer concern, but sometimes I question the technique. Darton's seems most problem free and consistent, but I question if it really makes a difference. I also wonder if this quick shift in torsional forces on the cables affect the momentum/ movement of the bow at the shot...but me English teacher...just a thought, with no science behind it I did read a thread were a fellow compared the draw cycle of the 3800 2010 (straight rod) to this years model and he said he thought the draw cycle this year was stiffer at the end...he attributed it to the slide trying to work its way on the bend. He also noted faster speeds on the 2010...maybe more friction, maybe just coincidence and placebo affect???
    I believe K and K has a similar cable rod design, except the cables will ride along the rod...no slide.
    Last edited by alaz; 01-21-2011 at 09:05 PM.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by acesup View Post
    Either you have less riser torque, but more cam lean movement, or just the opposite.
    Which bows have you proven this to be the case on?
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  18. #38
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    well isn't the point of the trc style cable guards to reduce riser torque? So I'll assume they are doing just that, but my post was directed more towards the comment you made about how when addressing cam lean, you want minimal movement throughout the draw cycle and shot and I wanted to know how you get minimal movement with a cable system that moves. I was humoring you.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by acesup View Post
    well isn't the point of the trc style cable guards to reduce riser torque? So I'll assume they are doing just that, but my post was directed more towards the comment you made about how when addressing cam lean, you want minimal movement throughout the draw cycle and shot and I wanted to know how you get minimal movement with a cable system that moves. I was humoring you.
    I should have been born in Missouri, "the show me state". Whenever I hear anything in archery that is all based on theory only, I want someone to prove it to show me! This is how I am with all my testing. All based on facts not theory.

    The shorter the axle to axle, the more the cable system is going to try to pull the cam out of alignment. So if I can allow those same cables to flex inward, this means there is less pull on the cable which in turn means there is less lean to the cam or idler.

    I don't know how else to explain it. Now if you have another theory as to why the ilder leans, please provide some more details.
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  20. #40
    Wheely Threads Wheely's Avatar
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    I don't have any thoughts on bows, but looking at all your ATA pictures has made me archery sick. I REALLY miss my club in California and all my shooting buddies.

    I seriously need to find some buddies and a regular archery hang out

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