Archery Forums 3DShoots.com
Find Archery Shoots near you  |   Advertise on 3DShoots.com

Go Back   Archery Forums 3DShoots.com > Archery Forum > General Archery Forum
 

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2011, 11:50 AM   #1
Chris
Administrator
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,074
Chris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond repute
Default Thoughts on bows after the ATA

Why is it the industry has taken this long to address the riser torque from cable rods, cams, flexing risers, etc?

It seems a lot of companies are now jumping in to address this situation.
Bowtech: FLX Guard
G5: Ti Flex rod/Centroid cams
Darton: Curved cable rod
Mathews: Reverse assist roller

You can't tell me other bow engineers didn't know about this. At first I thought it was gimmick but after setting up and testing thousands of bows, I can tell you it's real and it makes a difference. Bows that address these problems are much easier to tune.

Why did it take this long to address this problem and why is it only a handful of companies are looking into correcting this problem?

I don't understand the concept of making a product "good enough" it will sell. I would want to build the best product I possible could.

Companies that continue to try to improve archery and educating the consumer are really helping the industry. Eventually, those that coast or continue the same-old, same-old will eventually find smaller sales figures.

I say thank you to the bow companies that continue to push the boundaries of bow development. It helps keep people interested in our favorite past time.
__________________
Chris Christenson - Admin
3DShoots.com - Find Archery Shoots near you
ObsessionArchery.com - Archery Supplies
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 11:55 AM   #2
JTClark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 199
JTClark is on a distinguished road
Default

i have been take some of look at ATA live, and website of archery, and i do like the look diamond deadeye make, and i would love to see quest bow to make single cam as z7 or deadeye as limb style
after wait long to curious about invaison and it doesnt surpiser me i would say i'm stick with different as i'm fan single cam bow
JTClark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 12:10 PM   #3
Daniel Boone
Senior Member
 
Daniel Boone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,934
Daniel Boone is on a distinguished road
Default Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Why is it the industry has taken this long to address the riser torque from cable rods, cams, flexing risers, etc?

It seems a lot of companies are now jumping in to address this situation.
Bowtech: FLX Guard
G5: Ti Flex rod/Centroid cams
Darton: Curved cable rod
Mathews: Reverse assist roller

You can't tell me other bow engineers didn't know about this. At first I thought it was gimmick but after setting up and testing thousands of bows, I can tell you it's real and it makes a difference. Bows that address these problems are much easier to tune.

Why did it take this long to address this problem and why is it only a handful of companies are looking into correcting this problem?

I don't understand the concept of making a product "good enough" it will sell. I would want to build the best product I possible could.

Companies that continue to try to improve archery and educating the consumer are really helping the industry. Eventually, those that coast or continue the same-old, same-old will eventually find smaller sales figures.

I say thank you to the bow companies that continue to push the boundaries of bow development. It helps keep people interested in our favorite past time.
Many will will argue it hard to best a cable rod system. Some also think simple is best in bows. They got to try something different to make bows more attracting to sale from last year. Most change as been around and done over and over agian. Old timers get a kick out of new things that were done years ago and brought back. Heck want to get it right elimanate the cable rod and shoot through the cables and risors and elimanate lean all together.
DB
DB
__________________
Elite bows, Vortex Binos, Trophy Taker sights, Carter releases, Goldtip Arrows. CBE sights, Vapor Trail Strings, B Stinger stabilizers
Daniel Boone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 12:39 PM   #4
acesup
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 56
acesup is on a distinguished road
Default

even with flex gaurds and all these no torque systems, your never gonna eliminate all the side to side riser torque. So is it that big of an advancement in engineering...I say no. I mean I don't think it's a bad area of technology to explore, but to say that those bow companies who aren't focused these "no torque" systems are lacking anything as far as advancing bow design and technology is kinda silly
acesup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 01:58 PM   #5
Chris
Administrator
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,074
Chris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acesup View Post
even with flex gaurds and all these no torque systems, your never gonna eliminate all the side to side riser torque. So is it that big of an advancement in engineering...I say no. I mean I don't think it's a bad area of technology to explore, but to say that those bow companies who aren't focused these "no torque" systems are lacking anything as far as advancing bow design and technology is kinda silly
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
__________________
Chris Christenson - Admin
3DShoots.com - Find Archery Shoots near you
ObsessionArchery.com - Archery Supplies
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 05:41 PM   #6
CutTheLoop
Senior Member
 
CutTheLoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 990
CutTheLoop will become famous soon enoughCutTheLoop will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
It's called planned obsolescence, it exists in about every industry and made the computer & microprocessor industry bazillions of dollars.

Bow companies are just as guilty, several of them have YEARS worth of improvements already R&D'd, patents, and designs ready for the CNC machine they hold back for the very purpose of slowly reeling in us, and our wallets in the process.

Only problem is, it works.


Definition:
Business practice of deliberately outdating an item (much before the end of its useful life) by stopping its supply or service support and introducing a newer (often incompatible) model or version. Its objective is to prod the consumer or user to abandon the currently owned item in favor of the 'upgrade.' Most prevalent in computer hardware and software industry
__________________

..............................
CutTheLoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 05:42 PM   #7
Archerdad
Senior Member
 
Archerdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 896
Archerdad will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to Archerdad
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
i would have to agree with you...


My Martin had the nitrous x cams which is the shoot through system and
I truly felt it was the easiest bow to tune and easier to shoot well than other bows I have had.
Archerdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 06:48 PM   #8
Daniel Boone
Senior Member
 
Daniel Boone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,934
Daniel Boone is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archerdad View Post
i would have to agree with you...


My Martin had the nitrous x cams which is the shoot through system and
I truly felt it was the easiest bow to tune and easier to shoot well than other bows I have had.

Many of the top companies had shoot through risors for good reasons. It is a better mouse trap.
DB
__________________
Elite bows, Vortex Binos, Trophy Taker sights, Carter releases, Goldtip Arrows. CBE sights, Vapor Trail Strings, B Stinger stabilizers
Daniel Boone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 06:13 PM   #9
acesup
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 56
acesup is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
I think you missunderstood my post. I didn't say that bow companies who don't offer up new technologies are a problem, of course we as consumers want new advancements each year, I just said that the bow companies who are not choosing to focus those technologies on these no torque cable systems are'nt doing any kind of disservice to the bow industry or to us as consumers. In your our initial post you seemed to be highly impressed with all these no torque cable guard systems and bothered by those who were not persuing this technology, and the point I was trying to make is that since they don't fullly eliminate, what they say they eliminate, it's not so huge an advancement anyway and it's ok to explore other technologies. A bow is an assymetrical machine and we hold it on one side to shoot, therefore no technology can ever completely remove torque anyway, that is the human aspect of archery.

Last edited by acesup; 01-09-2011 at 06:16 PM.
acesup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 06:34 PM   #10
Chris
Administrator
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,074
Chris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond reputeChris has a reputation beyond repute
Default

So are you saying this is a problem that doesn't exist? Or are you saying it's not worth trying to address this problem? I'm not saying any of these attempts to fix the problem are perfect but they do improve the system.

Have you ever tried to tune one of these bows that have a huge amount of rotational torque...it's impossible. I've sent an entire shipment of bows back to a manufacturer once because they would not tune. I proved it.
__________________
Chris Christenson - Admin
3DShoots.com - Find Archery Shoots near you
ObsessionArchery.com - Archery Supplies
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 02:00 PM   #11
bfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Middletown, Pa
Posts: 806
bfisher will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Boone View Post
Many will will argue it hard to best a cable rod system. Some also think simple is best in bows. They got to try something different to make bows more attracting to sale from last year. Most change as been around and done over and over agian. Old timers get a kick out of new things that were done years ago and brought back. Heck want to get it right elimanate the cable rod and shoot through the cables and risors and elimanate lean all together.
DB
DB
Makes me wonder why Martin's X system was never more popular. I guess many took a look and thought that backing a nock through the cables a couple inches to the string was "too busy".

I'm sure more companies will in time explore the idea of reducing torque, but I still feel the only way to get rid of it is to be rid of the cable rod/slide or roller guards all together.

On the same issue, from another era, does anynody remember the days of 4-wheel compounds, before the advent of the cable guard? Duh!!!!!!

Does anybody remember 48" bows where the side load wasn't near as severe as it is today? Duh!!!!!!!!
__________________
Martin/Rytera Silver Star Shooter
UBP Life Member
PSAA Life Member
Worldwide Scuba Diver
bfisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 03:37 PM   #12
Daniel Boone
Senior Member
 
Daniel Boone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,934
Daniel Boone is on a distinguished road
Default Funny thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
Makes me wonder why Martin's X system was never more popular. I guess many took a look and thought that backing a nock through the cables a couple inches to the string was "too busy".

I'm sure more companies will in time explore the idea of reducing torque, but I still feel the only way to get rid of it is to be rid of the cable rod/slide or roller guards all together.

On the same issue, from another era, does anynody remember the days of 4-wheel compounds, before the advent of the cable guard? Duh!!!!!!

Does anybody remember 48" bows where the side load wasn't near as severe as it is today? Duh!!!!!!!!
I walked the ATA floor with a engineer who been designing for many years. Was interesting hearing who did what and when. Bows shot great scores though back in 70's. Like he said you got to do something everthing. Torguless bow now that would be interesting.
DB
__________________
Elite bows, Vortex Binos, Trophy Taker sights, Carter releases, Goldtip Arrows. CBE sights, Vapor Trail Strings, B Stinger stabilizers
Daniel Boone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 06:50 PM   #13
Daniel Boone
Senior Member
 
Daniel Boone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,934
Daniel Boone is on a distinguished road
Default Honestly

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
Makes me wonder why Martin's X system was never more popular. I guess many took a look and thought that backing a nock through the cables a couple inches to the string was "too busy".

I'm sure more companies will in time explore the idea of reducing torque, but I still feel the only way to get rid of it is to be rid of the cable rod/slide or roller guards all together.

On the same issue, from another era, does anynody remember the days of 4-wheel compounds, before the advent of the cable guard? Duh!!!!!!

Does anybody remember 48" bows where the side load wasn't near as severe as it is today? Duh!!!!!!!!
Several of the bows and manufactures are coming out with shoot through risors.
Main reason is its a target thing. Most sales are hunting bows.
DB
__________________
Elite bows, Vortex Binos, Trophy Taker sights, Carter releases, Goldtip Arrows. CBE sights, Vapor Trail Strings, B Stinger stabilizers
Daniel Boone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 07:28 PM   #14
Reed
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 26
Reed is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Boone View Post
Several of the bows and manufactures are coming out with shoot through risors.
Main reason is its a target thing. Most sales are hunting bows.
DB
shoot through risers do not solve the problem but a choot thoguth cable system does. Now a shoot though riser adn cable system like the alternative exact was a very good idea that never cought on.
Reed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 08:52 PM   #15
Daniel Boone
Senior Member
 
Daniel Boone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,934
Daniel Boone is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reed View Post
shoot through risers do not solve the problem but a choot thoguth cable system does. Now a shoot though riser adn cable system like the alternative exact was a very good idea that never cought on.
Agree. But any can make a shoot through bow split the cable easy. Seen it done many times.
DB
__________________
Elite bows, Vortex Binos, Trophy Taker sights, Carter releases, Goldtip Arrows. CBE sights, Vapor Trail Strings, B Stinger stabilizers
Daniel Boone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2004 3DShoots.com