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Old 11-03-2006, 11:32 PM   #1
rdnkgrl_robinhood
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Default Kisser Button / D ring / Accuracy

Ok, I feel like a real dummy asking this but I have to ask anyway.

I shoot a lot, like nearly 3 hours a day or more. So I know I put a lot of wear on my bow anyway. Two days ago I was shooting and I blew the serving off my string. I mean it started to unravel from below the D ring. So I took it in to have it reserved. So far so good right?

The guy that fixed everything said that my D-ring was too long so when he put it back on he made it a little shorter. Well I think it throwing my shot completely off. My Kisser doest feel quite right.. And I just cant seem to find the comfort zone. I mean I had everything just right before, and now it just feels off. What should I do?

I have readjusted the kisser two or three times.. The bad thing is this, I cant seem find a consistancy with my shot. One minute I may have a really tight group and then the next round sux. I did readjust the sight slightly and I can X a few, but the rest seem be all over. I have gone from a normal 1 1/2 inch group to being spread over four or five inches (20 Y). It is driving me nutz, what should I do?

I am shooting a Martin Jaguar
26 in draw (plus d ring)
approx 52 lbs
Whisker Biscuit
Big Kiss Kisser
Trueglo 5 pin ultra bright w/violet light

Anything anybody can tell me would be a big help.

Thx

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Old 11-04-2006, 12:10 AM   #2
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Well shooting 3 hrs.a day will defenitly set a shooting form/habit good or bad. Shooting 1 1/2" groups would say that before adjustments made to your string loop you had your draw consistant. When the string loop was shortened this change your consistant draw. Everyone has that sweet spot in there draw in good shooting form. This is just my opinion.
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:32 AM   #3
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so in your oppinion should take the new loop off and put another one on that closer to the length of the one I had before?
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:51 AM   #4
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Either that or re-adjust your shooting form/style. You had trianed yourself to a consistant draw point with the longer string loop. That is why your kisser button was of. A slight change can have effect on point of impact. Consitancy has changed in result accuracy affected.
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Old 11-04-2006, 08:09 AM   #5
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Thank you for the help. I will make a few adjustments then try to reshoot and see where it puts me. I just want to get it back where I was before.
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Old 11-04-2006, 05:13 PM   #6
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Well I went out and shot today for a couple of hours. Instead of moving everything on the string I decided to try adjusting the length on my release. I mean I only needed about 1/2 inch or so. So I adjusted it to give me just enough length to try to bring me back to where I was before shortening the D ring. It seemed to work. After making a few minor adjustments to the sight I am once again hitting where I should. Now I just have to work on pulling the group a little tighter.

Thank you for your help

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Old 11-04-2006, 06:26 PM   #7
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Any adjustments to your bow set-up generaly can and will effect your arrow point of impact. All shooters have what I call the sweet spot and when you find that spot your acuracy will greatly improve. Good luck in getting your group tightened up.
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Old 11-04-2006, 08:00 PM   #8
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rdnkgirl, Hopefully they will come up with a bottle of group tightner, That would definatly make a man an instant millionare. HUMMMM! sounds like the change got in it's shot at you it will do it to every body . archery is a very mental sport. Keep focused on that correct form shot after shot after shot after shot............................................ regoup as you have and keep on shootin sometimes it hleps me to take a day or two off maybe just go and sit out by the target and dream of a big T-bone Med rare.. Straight shootin, Holy Smokes
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Old 11-04-2006, 10:06 PM   #9
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note: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A DATE! (Pre-post warning)

Have somone take pictures of you when you are at full draw and post them. This will help us identify your issues, or if its mental

D-Loop (its not a D-Ring typically unless you use those metal ones) should NOT affect your draw length, which means the D-Loop can be a full inch long if you are comfrotable with it.

D-Loops are often used to make up for poorly measure draw lengths and allowing people to shoot shorter draw bows without the bow Tech working on the string... basically being lazy or ignorant


Its good that you found a "workaround" however Problems with lenghting your release include:

- reaching for the trigger, greater chance of punching
- curling your wrist to get your fingers up further
- feeling like you are "over drawing"
- Weakining the release to the point of failure

Issues with shortening your D-Loop

- Feel like a shorter draw, may not have the same anchor points
- Feel like the bow is not centers correcly because of where you are drawing to.
- If to short can cause issues w/ release
- If poorly tied / done can cost speed

Issues with lengthing the D-Loop

- Longer drawlength but no benefit to it
- Makes you anchro back further
- May be hard to get nose on the string to look through peep
- Can throw everything out of alignment, similar to shooting to long of a draw length.

Its a fine balance... one I couldn't find if I fell out of a boat and hit it.
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Old 11-05-2006, 10:51 AM   #10
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I am not looking for a date either, just good advise, so we are both safe there.

I will have someone take some pics next week but where do I post them?

All help and critiques are much appriciated

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Last edited by rdnkgrl_robinhood; 11-05-2006 at 10:52 AM. Reason: change
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:21 AM   #11
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You can upload them right to this site and they will be hosted here .

- Try to get a good side shot while you are lined up with the target (if possible get a target that is eye level so your not looking down at the ground). This will help determine if your draw length is the correct length

- If possible get a shot from behind showing your anchor and elbow. Try to ignore the camera if possible so your not getting that "1 perfect shot" and instead just a normal shot.

btw: Shooting 3 - 4 hours a day is a LOT, if you just recently started shooting you may want to reduce that a bit as after 3 - 4 hours your muscles are probably extremly sore... then again just leaving the service and beating up felons for a living probably keeps you pretty strong... just a suggestion though.

Another "negative" to shooting so much is you may be training to bad habits as you work through sore arms and back. By doing this it could affect the way you draw and the way you hold, it can also impact how you hold as you will look for the "easiest" way to hold instead of the correct way.

Just my opion though. I could be way off but I know after shooting for a few hours thats how i get.
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:21 AM   #12
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Quick question about the draw length and the d-loop..

I started out with a bow that was a 27 inch draw plus the loop. I ended up slapping my forearm with nearly every shot. Since that bow could not be shorted any more at all I bought a new bow. The Jaguar, because it seemed to be so adjustable. So the bow shop set me up with around a 26 draw plus the length of the loop (which was originally around 1 inch.

Now the loop is shorter, and yes the draw does seem to be much shorter. So you are saying I would be better off to try to get a little more length added to the the string its self as opposed to lengthening the release or d-loop?

Can you tell me what advantages I would gain by lengthening the string?

I dont think my draw length was ever actually measured. The first bow shop just sold me the shortest bow they had because thats what they said I needed, the second bow shop was going on the fact that the first bow was too long. So I guess I should go in and find out what my draw length really should be?

Also since we are talking about draw length and such, how do you figure what the measurement of your arrows should be? I think my arrows are too short. With my string right at 26 inches, they cut my arrows at 24, there is no margin for error when drawing back my bow.. My field tips just barely are at the edge of my riser. Shouldnt they be a little longer? I havent shot broadheads since I got the bow, but I am not sure I could even put them on these arrows being that they are so short.


Also keep in mind I am relatively new to archery, I dont want to sound like a idiot asking this stuff, I am just trying to learn as much as I can.


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Old 11-05-2006, 11:26 AM   #13
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one of the biggest "rookie tuner" mistakes (NOT YOURS!!!!) is that instead of lengthing the drawlength to correct by twisting the cables they short it to the easiest drawlength and then add a long loop to compensate.

in order to get 1/2 inch draw lengths most bows require that you twist the cable more to make the string shorter. so if you need 26 3/4 you would go 27" and twist the cables. If you need 27 1/4 you would go 27" and reduce the number of twists... at least thats how MOST bow techs would do it.

Most "box" stores (gander, cabelas...) will just go to the next lowest setting and rig the d-loop to be what you want. The downside is:
1. longer d-loop = less speed
2. Shorter drawlength = less speed
3. Shorter drawlength won't line up correctly on the draw
4. D-Loop may stretch = BAD!
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:37 AM   #14
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Thank you for the suggestions. But I dont always shoot for 3 or 4 hours, that is usually only a couple days a weeks. My average is around 2 to 2 1/2 a day. I started shooting back in mid July. When I first started shooting about an hour would do me in. So I have kind of worked my self up to this. I am only pulling about 52 lbs right now, and it seems to be an easy draw so I really dont get too fatigued. Also I do a lot of stretching and warms ups before I shoot.
I usually try to take off at least one day a week, usually Sunday. Then Monday is a short shoot day at about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Tuesday is usually right at 2. Wedsday is right at 3 1/2. Thursday Friday Saturday are usually 3 or more.

That being said, you are right about the fact that I am likely teaching myself bad habits. The thing is that no one has really "taught" me much of anything. I would love to go to a competition just to watch people shoot. Or partner up with a vet shooter that could really teach me some stuff. Everything I have learned so far I basically taught myself, I am sure there is a bunch of stuff I am likely doing wrong. So as far as learning good form and techniques what can you recommend? Are there videos that teach this stuff? if so which ones would be best?

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Old 11-05-2006, 11:37 AM   #15
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There are several reasons why you may have been slappin the crap out of your arm.

- Brace Height (To short = OUCH)
- Form issues (most likely)
- Not moving your arm out of the way
- Tuning issues... ie: the strings are on the wrong side of the cable slide

Draw length could definately be related to this as well but its not nearly as likely as the above issues. My guess would be Form issues. especially if you have large forarms or a very very closed stance.

You need to meaure your draw length. The best way is to go to an actual bow shop. Any GOOD bowshop will have a recurve bow w/ a dowel arrow that will show your correct draw length. Measuring wingspan is not accurate enough IMHO.

I normally match my arrows to my draw length -1 inch. So I shoot a 30 inch draw (w/ bent elbow) and my arrows are 29 inches long from nock to insert. Tips are not included in the length.

If your arrows are drawing to where your field point is on the rest its a HUGE issue!!! you are running a lot of risk doing that, your insert should be IN FRONT of your rest while at full draw.

It sounds like you should never go back to where you got the first bow from or the second one! your arrows should be at least a full inch longer, if not more depending on the riser and where your rest is. Also, make sure you weigh them. I'm not sure what arrows you are shooting but at 24" or less you need them to weigh at least 250+ grains to hit the VERY min 5 gr / pound rule

what kind of arrows are you shooting and what weight of tip? I can look up what they weigh
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdnkgrl_robinhood View Post
Thank you for the suggestions. But I dont always shoot for 3 or 4 hours, that is usually only a couple days a weeks. My average is around 2 to 2 1/2 a day. I started shooting back in mid July. When I first started shooting about an hour would do me in. So I have kind of worked my self up to this. I am only pulling about 52 lbs right now, and it seems to be an easy draw so I really dont get too fatigued. Also I do a lot of stretching and warms ups before I shoot.
I usually try to take off at least one day a week, usually Sunday. Then Monday is a short shoot day at about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Tuesday is usually right at 2. Wedsday is right at 3 1/2. Thursday Friday Saturday are usually 3 or more.

That being said, you are right about the fact that I am likely teaching myself bad habits. The thing is that no one has really "taught" me much of anything. I would love to go to a competition just to watch people shoot. Or partner up with a vet shooter that could really teach me some stuff. Everything I have learned so far I basically taught myself, I am sure there is a bunch of stuff I am likely doing wrong. So as far as learning good form and techniques what can you recommend? Are there videos that teach this stuff? if so which ones would be best?

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I'm sure being in the Military you picked up a lot of good workout habits. Typically you would not work out the same mucsle groups (ex: you don't bench every single day or work your legs every day) When you are shooting so often you have the potential to do some damage to mucles that are used extensively... just a warning.

as for form... my form sux! haha You may want to look for a good instructor or talk to your local archery shop. a lot of time they will have full time staffers who can shoot really well. IF that doesn't work there is a guy on Archery talk who is an excellent resource. Nuts&Bolts (aka: lug nut) he will help you out quite a bit if you ask him.
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:47 AM   #17
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Well thats makes sense then.... The first bow I had was a PSE Deerhunter, and like I said it was too long. They did try to twist the string down to make it shorter but it was never quite right. Plus the fact that the string was on teardrops and if you twisted it too much then of course it always looked like it was sneeze away from popping the string completely off the bow.

I am pretty sure on the Martin they just simply left the draw at 26 and gave me a long loop. So if I had this bow set to 27 and twisted down to 26 1/2 then I could get more speed then what I have now? Also, if I lengthen the string then could get more poundage out the it? I think I am right at 53 right now, and that was real close to being maxed out.

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Old 11-05-2006, 11:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rdnkgrl_robinhood View Post
Well thats makes sense then.... The first bow I had was a PSE Deerhunter, and like I said it was too long. They did try to twist the string down to make it shorter but it was never quite right. Plus the fact that the string was on teardrops and if you twisted it too much then of course it always looked like it was sneeze away from popping the string completely off the bow.

I am pretty sure on the Martin they just simply left the draw at 26 and gave me a long loop. So if I had this bow set to 27 and twisted down to 26 1/2 then I could get more speed then what I have now? Also, if I lengthen the string then could get more poundage out the it? I think I am right at 53 right now, and that was real close to being maxed out.

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if your shooting 53 pounds on a bow that is supposed to max out at 50 I'd be leery of it... I'm always leary of people pulling more weight then they are rated for. Some people do it all the time without a problem. call me a cautious pansy but I would never over weight the limbs. Upping the draw weight even more is just asking for issues IMHO.

The difference in speed won't be huge, but it will help a little. I would lengthen the DL, lower the draw weight and shorten the D-Loop. All this will equal out and you'll be shooting correctly at the same speed and within the specs of the bow.

also it will let you shoot a slightly lighter arrow.
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Old 11-05-2006, 12:24 PM   #19
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Ok maybe I wasnt real clear on my wording... My arrow tips are at the edge of the riser, not the edge of the rest.. When I post the pics you be able to see what I mean.
And the arrows I am shooting are Easton carbonaeros carbon excell 500 7.1 gpi with a 100 grain tip and they are all cut to 24 inches.

I hope this helps

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Old 11-05-2006, 12:49 PM   #20
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if my math is correct:

(7.1 * 24) + 100 + 12 = 282.4

Min for your bow: 53 * 5 (assuming it is 5 GPP and not 6 GPP) = 265 grains min

so you are at 5.32 / pound which is in line with the min that you need so you are safe there assuming you are using 4" duraveins. if you switch to 2 inch blazers yours looking at about 2 grains / fletching instead of 4. - drops total arrow weight to 276.4 give or take (5.21 gpp)

your running pretty close to minimum weight allowed.
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Old 11-05-2006, 03:35 PM   #21
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I am currently using 4 inch duravains. (purple and flo green)

Well thank you for all of the information. This has been a world of help.
I will try to get those pictures up soon.

I would assume that when I do finally get my new bow I will need new arrows . I dont think that these will be long enough.

Once again thank you for your help.

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Old 11-05-2006, 05:52 PM   #22
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I am currently using 4 inch duravains. (purple and flo green)

Well thank you for all of the information. This has been a world of help.
I will try to get those pictures up soon.

I would assume that when I do finally get my new bow I will need new arrows . I dont think that these will be long enough.

Once again thank you for your help.

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They may be long enough.. Hoyt's have that really weird design which moves the rest back pretty far... I would get the new bow first. then get measured and fixed for DL and then get new arrows if needed
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:56 PM   #23
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Default pictures will have to wait

I fell and broke my foot so I will have to wait a couple of weeks before I take those pictures.

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Old 11-09-2006, 05:21 PM   #24
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I fell and broke my foot so I will have to wait a couple of weeks before I take those pictures.

rdnkgrl_robinhood

You don't shoot with your feet.............do you???? Just kidding I hope everything heals up nicely. Do what the doctor says.
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Old 11-09-2006, 06:08 PM   #25
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You don't shoot with your feet.............do you???? Just kidding I hope everything heals up nicely. Do what the doctor says.
why you gatta kid around all the time.......
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Old 11-09-2006, 09:53 PM   #26
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I can see it now. One person pushes the well chair the other takes the shot. actually I thought I broke a bone in my bow hand the other day, turned out to be just a bruise, but I guess I can relate........
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:29 AM   #27
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Thanks for the support guys... Hopefully I wont be down long

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Old 11-13-2006, 07:46 AM   #28
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I am not looking for a date either, just good advise, so we are both safe there.

I will have someone take some pics next week but where do I post them?

All help and critiques are much appriciated

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You can post them right here in this post if you want rdnkgrl_robinhood. We can look at your Form and see if your Drawlength or form needs to be adjusted. If you are shootin' like you said you are shootin', I'd say it should look pretty good. Consistancy is the name of game here. But good form makes it's even better and more consistant.
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