Always bugged me shooting bags compared to a 3d target

Daniel Boone · 07-04-2009, 11:25 AM

Never understood this that I can group better on a 3d target than a bag target.

Always heard the top shooters say you should sight in on a 3d target.

Some tell me they hit the bag targets different from the 3d target.

Whats your thoughts?

Here 30yrds groups on both. Love my spdyer web bag target, awesome bag target.

bhtr3d · 07-04-2009, 11:30 AM

Actually you have the same floating pattern on both....

Daniel Boone · 07-04-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtr3d

Actually you have the same floating pattern on both....

Four arrows dead center of 14 ring, 14 ring is smaller than the bag circle. Pretty happy with that group.

Those on the bag target are never as good as the 3d target.

DB

PS

Thoses on the bag target are not acceptable for me at 30yrds. I feel I should hit that larger blue circle evertime.

bhtr3d · 07-04-2009, 11:48 AM

your looking at the spot...instead of shooting through the spot...... i know it sounds profound but try it ....let your subconsence mind let the arrow go through the spot like shooting the 3d target....

CutTheLoop · 07-04-2009, 12:35 PM

Same here brother, I actually hate sighting in on a bag, for me it just seems to cause over aiming and forced shots. On animal target, I tend to shoot relaxed and cut it loose as soon as I am settled in the center of the 10.

Daniel Boone · 07-04-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutTheLoop

Same here brother, I actually hate sighting in on a bag, for me it just seems to cause over aiming and forced shots. On animal target, I tend to shoot relaxed and cut it loose as soon as I am settled in the center of the 10.

From many top pros. It may be very well relaxation and comfort on the 3d target. Im also trying alens for the first time and seeing movement is something that I need to learn to allow to floot as the dot is moving.
DB

JAVI · 07-04-2009, 01:36 PM

It's all in your head... turn your brain off...

Daniel Boone · 07-04-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

It's all in your head... turn your brain off...

Some very good archers say they hit the bags targets different than a 3d target. Most likely how we sight up on each.
DB

JAVI · 07-04-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boone

Some very good archers say they hit the bags targets different than a 3d target. Most likely how we sight up on each.
DB

No Dan... it is in your head... aiming is aiming... whether it is at the center of a large dot, a 14 ring or a glint of light on a blank target... I wonder how you would handle a 122cm target at 90 meters...

The problem for most (even them very good shooters) is the degree of trust and expectation they feel when shooting a bag vs. a stuffed animal... and that's in the head..

CutTheLoop · 07-04-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

It's all in your head... turn your brain off...

I agree, somewhat.

Should turn off the negative part of you brain, the one which whispers in your ear when you are unsure or a little shaky on yardage etc. That voice at full draw telling you,

"you sure you got enough yards?...are you? , better hold higher, no wait... a little lower, that last miss was high, but wait, you didn't have the yards then either...are you sure your peep didn't move this morning when you snagged your bow pulling out of the case? How long are you gonna aim, are you gonna release yet ? Maybe you should let down, but then again maybe this is the one time, when you actually have it all correct. are you?, do you?, will you? NOW YANK IT!!!"

Sometimes the body will do whatever the mind tells it to, getting those 2 in synch is the tough part.

Devine Shot · 07-04-2009, 03:40 PM

How did you know my shot sequence.........Man and they say its all in our head.... Can not be with me I think through every shot just as cut the loop.....LOL.......

That why it is such a fun game cause when all is going right you just say put pin on spot release........

And Dan in Metropolis last week I was hitting bags great and went to 3d targets and shootings three inches left. Probaly in the head yet I sighted in on the targets it was a good weekend. Who knows what will happen next time.....

Daniel Boone · 07-04-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

No Dan... it is in your head... aiming is aiming... whether it is at the center of a large dot, a 14 ring or a glint of light on a blank target... I wonder how you would handle a 122cm target at 90 meters...

The problem for most (even them very good shooters) is the degree of trust and expectation they feel when shooting a bag vs. a stuffed animal... and that's in the head..

To many really good legend 3d shooters have told me this for years. Burly Hall and others. Maybe why many of these shooters are not the best spot shooters. Not 100% sure why but it seems to be true for me.
DB

JAVI · 07-05-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boone

To many really good legend 3d shooters have told me this for years. Burly Hall and others. Maybe why many of these shooters are not the best spot shooters. Not 100% sure why but it seems to be true for me.
DB

Yes Dan I've heard those same shooters say that as well, but I've personally witnessed many others who are just as high in the pro ranks shoot dead center in the bags and never re-sight for the animals... so if it only affects some of the shooters then it can't be a phenomenon of physics can it...

Dan, there is no magical aspect to aiming that allows one person to hold well on a foam target and not hold well on a bag… It is entirely mental just as most of this sport is…. Once you learn that it is the process and not the result that makes a shot; the rest is in your head…

If you take the Tournament Archer magazine there is an article in the Jan-Feb issue that everyone who has trouble aiming should read… called You Can Only Shoot as Good as You can Aim….

Daniel Boone · 07-05-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

Yes Dan I've heard those same shooters say that as well, but I've personally witnessed many others who are just as high in the pro ranks shoot dead center in the bags and never re-sight for the animals... so if it only affects some of the shooters then it can't be a phenomenon of physics can it...

Dan, there is no magical aspect to aiming that allows one person to hold well on a foam target and not hold well on a bag… It is entirely mental just as most of this sport is…. Once you learn that it is the process and not the result that makes a shot; the rest is in your head…

If you take the Tournament Archer magazine there is an article in the Jan-Feb issue that everyone who has trouble aiming should read… called You Can Only Shoot as Good as You can Aim….

I read the article. I have seen five good archers all hit right side of the black dot in field before, Dean included of course he hit left side being left handed. Seen it in 3d as well. When the first three hit right, I aim to the left side of the target. Aiming is a process hard to figure at times and what makes the mind aim where it does at times. Im working on it!
DB

XQuest · 07-05-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boone

I read the article. I have seen five good archers all hit right side of the black dot in field before, Dean included of course he hit left side being left handed. Seen it in 3d as well. When the first three hit right, I aim to the left side of the target. Aiming is a process hard to figure at times and what makes the mind aim where it does at times. Im working on it!
DB

Dan, I can remember that when I got my game in order (usually started to peak middle of June) that my windage stayed the same. I can remember when I wouldn't move it a single click for a month at a time. Some move it in windy conditions but I'm a gap shooter and I just aim off.
Javi is right on and giving it straight to you, aiming at something is just that....aiming. When you aim at a 3-d target and you can't see anything but a figure what you are doing is lining up an impact point where you think it should be. Do that on a spot, doesn't matter what color or size.....same principal. Love ya big guy but as Griv says, you're think'in to much. Shut down the head game and shoot some arrows.
Oh yeah, the reason we shoot left/right is our form is not consistent........it isn't the bow.

Daniel Boone · 07-05-2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XQuest

Dan, I can remember that when I got my game in order (usually started to peak middle of June) that my windage stayed the same. I can remember when I wouldn't move it a single click for a month at a time. Some move it in windy conditions but I'm a gap shooter and I just aim off.
Javi is right on and giving it straight to you, aiming at something is just that....aiming. When you aim at a 3-d target and you can't see anything but a figure what you are doing is lining up an impact point where you think it should be. Do that on a spot, doesn't matter what color or size.....same principal. Love ya big guy but as Griv says, you're think'in to much. Shut down the head game and shoot some arrows.
Oh yeah, the reason we shoot left/right is our form is not consistent........it isn't the bow.

I'm defiantly sure it form plus things like I'm shooting a lens along with shooting less poundage than I ever have shot. I'm shooting allot of arrows trying to figure it out. Dint feel like I'm over thinking it. I'm trying to find the zone! As you have always said being in the zone is the place to be.
Thanks to you and Javi. I always appreciate 100% honesty and try to convey that as well. Might just be the pressure I feel trying to compete in the pro class. I have had a decent 3d year. Just frustrating when you feel so close and things like aches and pains and health are certainly factors that contribute to all this shooting I do! Next weekend I have two state championships and both require shooting against some really good shooters. Just trying to get it together and shoot well.
DB
DB

glpoe · 07-05-2009, 01:33 PM

I will throw in my 2 sense. I have a varying case of target panic but mainly on shooting dots. When I am shooting at a 3d target or even the picture of an animal I do a lot better. I think it has something to do with pressure since when I am in the hunting mode (3D) my mind is telling me that even if I miss the heart by just a little bit I will still get a good shot on the lungs for a good kill. If I am shooting at dots then a miss of the dot is failure where close is unacctible, thus the pressure of a perfect shot. When I shoot at a 3D target I strive to place all the arrows in the heart but a miss just isn't as stressful and I believe I shoot more relaxed thus I get a better group. Make sense?

thehairlessone! · 07-05-2009, 01:41 PM

I always hated shooting bag targets too. I shoot better at animals.

rick

Daniel Boone · 07-05-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehairlessone!

I always hated shooting bag targets too. I shoot better at animals.

rick

It something one has to get over to become good. I do think its confindence and in ones comfort zone. Indoor spots, Im out of my comfort zone just like many.
DB

Daniel Boone · 07-05-2009, 04:04 PM

My first groups are always my best. 30yrd groups. Then I have tendacy to fill the back shoulder and release seems to get punched more rather than the smooth pull.

In 3d your not ask to shoot alot of shots without rest in between. Just accucute 20 good shots at ASA.

Gator eye · 07-06-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehairlessone!

I always hated shooting bag targets too. I shoot better at animals.

rick

I'm backwards.........I have a hard time shooting animals.

there is nothing to focus on when looking at 3d targets just a wall of black or brown. I start trying to aim and yanking the trigger when I think the pin is in the circle. When I have a solid spot to stare at I can accept the float and let the release happen without any thought.

I can shoot a bag target way better than foam.

not to mention I can't judge yardage.

stevejo@work · 07-06-2009, 09:06 AM

I'd say it is target panic.

Big blue dot... easy to hit, just hold it right there... hold it STILL, you're moving... crap... HIT IT!

Try putting a dot on the 3-d and see if you dont have the same problem.

It's funny, I shoot a lens (6x) I shoot better without a clarifier than I do WITH. Without a clarifier the target is fuzzy... with I can see the rings... and then I try to over control the shot.

stevejo@work · 07-06-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutTheLoop

"you sure you got enough yards?...are you? , better hold higher, no wait... a little lower, that last miss was high, but wait, you didn't have the yards then either...are you sure your peep didn't move this morning when you snagged your bow pulling out of the case? How long are you gonna aim, are you gonna release yet ? Maybe you should let down, but then again maybe this is the one time, when you actually have it all correct. are you?, do you?, will you? NOW YANK IT!!!"

LOL
Man... aint that the truth.

That voice has to be blocked out. Fighting for quiet at full draw is critical.

I tend to compartmentalize pretty well. my wife struggles with it more than I do.

I envision two separate shooters. One gets to guess the yardage and dial it in. The other shoots the shot. I go through the yardage estimation process and dial the yardage... then I turn it off.

When I go to draw back it might as well have been my wife who set the yardage. I dont think about it. And at this point I honestly dont care if the arrow goes 2 feet over the target's back. Yardage estimation is done... time to shoot. If I dont shoot perfectly, it wont matter how accurate the estimation was.

They are two completely separate disciplines and you have to keep them that way.

If I guess the yardage and then execute the shot the feedback from the shot is applied to both disciplines, but only if the shot was executed correctly. It then reveals if I made an accurate estimation and also reveals the consistency of my shot process.

Even a miss is positive feedback. I completely whiffed a target yesterday at the R100. 2 Flamingos 1 arrow at each. the second was slightly behind the first... I dialed 37 yards after significant cross checking and was confidant in my estimation.

Executed a near perfect shot and stuck my arrow in a tree! right over it's back. First target i've whiffed in I dont know how long.

Knocked another arrow, did the math on the feedback from the first shot, realized how I got duped, redialed the yardage and 10 ringed the other.

My shot was perfect, but the estimation in yardage was off. The arrow just revealed the error.

I would rather take a clean miss like that, break an arrow, and humble my over active ego than to yank the release and 10 ring it.

clemenlp · 07-06-2009, 10:36 AM

Most, not all, groups that have been shown on this thread could actually be explained as easily as the bag moving at each point of impact. A 3d target is rigid and does not move each time you hit the target, unlike the burlap cover of the bag targets that move in a stiff wind.

Daniel Boone · 07-06-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clemenlp

Most, not all, groups that have been shown on this thread could actually be explained as easily as the bag moving at each point of impact. A 3d target is rigid and does not move each time you hit the target, unlike the burlap cover of the bag targets that move in a stiff wind.

Sits on the ground and it flat on the bottom. No movement here.
DB

mathewsgirl13 · 07-06-2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutTheLoop

"you sure you got enough yards?...are you? , better hold higher, no wait... a little lower, that last miss was high, but wait, you didn't have the yards then either...are you sure your peep didn't move this morning when you snagged your bow pulling out of the case? How long are you gonna aim, are you gonna release yet ? Maybe you should let down, but then again maybe this is the one time, when you actually have it all correct. are you?, do you?, will you? NOW YANK IT!!!"

I love it Jimmy!! And that is so true!!

I have to say... I shot an animal better than a bag myself... always have.

Big B · 07-06-2009, 10:01 PM

I know what you mean. I shoot some bag targets good but animal targets shoot very well. The target that gets me all day long is the 18-1 target. I can't group on that thing to save my life.

jame · 07-06-2009, 10:40 PM

I dont have to change my sight at all when shooting dots and then going to an animal But I was talking to Bobby Ketcher in Illinois and he has too change his sight setting. He says he has to sight in around 2 inches left on a dot so it will hit the animal where he wants to.

Daniel Boone · 07-07-2009, 04:42 PM

Just saying the heck with over thinking it. Get on target and just be smooth and release.

Dont overthink it!

Just making it harder than I should.