How much Ke

Ohansolo · 08-10-2009, 02:13 PM

I am shooting 404 gr at 280 fps for about 70 ftlb. Do you think this is enough or should I be shooting a heavier arrow?

sgmathews92 · 08-10-2009, 02:17 PM

What will you be hunting? Thats more than enough KE to kill anything.

Ohansolo · 08-10-2009, 02:39 PM

I will be hunting pa whitetail. I have never hear people talking about ke when it comes to bow hunting. I know what I consider to be enough with a gun but with a bow I am clueless and I know some people that use arrows well into the 500gr range.

JAVI · 08-10-2009, 03:12 PM

Your set up is fine; Ke is not a very good measurement of penetration potential anyway...

Arrow weight does more than provide penetration. It also absorbs the energy from your bow more efficiently, quieting your shot and decreasing the vibration.

It might or might benefit you to increase the mass weight only practical testing will reveal that.

I would be more concerned with FOC and arrow flight with broad heads than mass at this point.

kebees4 · 08-10-2009, 04:25 PM

Don't need all that KE. My son shot a buck last year with 40# bow and an arrow that weighed 275 grains and traveling 203 FPS. It went through both shoulder blades with a 3 blade 75 grain Muzzy broad head. He also shot a doe quartering away breaking 2 ribs on entry and passing through the front shoulder on exit.What are talking about will be no problem.

sgmathews92 · 08-10-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohansolo

I will be hunting pa whitetail. I have never hear people talking about ke when it comes to bow hunting. I know what I consider to be enough with a gun but with a bow I am clueless and I know some people that use arrows well into the 500gr range.

I believe shot placement is way more important than KE. For instance, if there was a guy drawing 100lbs and shooting a 550 grain arrow at 315fps, shooting a deer really far back might not kill it, the same would happen with your set up. If you shoot the deer in the heart, or double lung it, the deer is going to go down even if your drawing 40lbs and shooting a light arrow

aljo · 08-10-2009, 09:32 PM

i've read that you should have 25 lbs of ke for deer. i figure you've got about 70. i'm shooting almost the exact same set-up as you, so believe me; as long as you hit it good it's going down. i've been hunting pa deer for over 20 yrs. most of that time with a lot less ke than that. it's the accuracy that counts.

Chris · 08-10-2009, 09:46 PM

Is it enough? Enough for any animal on the U.S. Continent including Elk, Moose and Bison.

Ohansolo · 08-11-2009, 08:23 AM

I agree, shot placement is always the most important factor. I often tell people that you could shoot a deer with a 22 lr and it will do the job, IF you put it in the boiler room, BUT I don't know anyone that uses less than a 270 win. I didn't know if this was a similar deal. If 70 ke is more than enough to get the job done then I am happy. I just don't want to go into the woods with a 243 when I should be taking a 300 mag. What do you use to measure penetration potential If not ke?
Thanks for the responses!!! Help is always appreciated!!

JAVI · 08-11-2009, 08:51 AM

Momentum

dbdcougar · 08-11-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

BUT I don't know anyone that uses less than a 270 win.

You do now. My 260 has been very effective on multiple whitetail and my 6mm REM Encore handgun accounted for a doe at ~90yds last season - DRT. Regardless of the gun writers pushing the the short mags etc. deer are not steel plated.

Ohansolo · 08-11-2009, 10:46 AM

Javi,

How would one determine the amount of momentum generated. I don't mean to be a smart @**. I have a formula I use to find my ke, do you have one to determine momentum? I guess it really dose not mater if every one thinks i have more than enough ke- momentum.

jdawg240 · 08-11-2009, 01:52 PM

I shot 2 deer at 85 lbs of ke 2 years ago and have since backed my bow down and went to a heaver shaft for whitetails. Anything over 70lb of KE in my opinion is just plain over kill. Unless you plan on taking very long shots.

hunter2678 · 08-11-2009, 02:13 PM

Well some old timers still preach that you cant shoot any decent "mature: deer/buck with an arrow under 450 gns..

Ohansolo · 08-11-2009, 02:19 PM

Db,
Personally, I think a 243win more than gets the job done on whitetail and that is a very comparable round to 6mm rem. I reload both and have seen the holes they put through shoulder blades. I was just trying to express that what will get the job done and what is commonly preferable can be two separate things. A 6mm is a great round for deer IMHO but a vast majority of guns used for hunting deer are .277 or larger. I will dully note that you like rounds that are closer to .25 bore.

Jdawg,
Thanks, that is just what I wanted to hear. As db pointed out with my 270 comment, I like a little overkill.

sgmathews92 · 08-11-2009, 09:13 PM

Im wondering about my cousins bow. Its a hoyt avenger, 55lbs 29DL and shooting a 378 grain arrow at 260. Is that enough for mule deer, and how long of a shot would you take with it?

dbdcougar · 08-12-2009, 07:13 AM

It's mostly personal preference - I just have to roll my eyes at all the marketing for the latest and greatest Ultra Short Magnum rounds. If you are a regular shooter, can handle the rounds and want a multi-purpose weapon - more power to you. But we've all seen the guy who fires 3 rounds a year go out and buy way more gun than he needs and is lucky to hit a 4x8 sheet of plywood at 100yds., he would be far better served with that 243 he can shoot well. Mostly would just like to see some of these gun rags come back to reality - they would be doing the majority of hunters a big service. Rant off! Back to archery.

hunter2678 · 08-12-2009, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgmathews92

Im wondering about my cousins bow. Its a hoyt avenger, 55lbs 29DL and shooting a 378 grain arrow at 260. Is that enough for mule deer, and how long of a shot would you take with it?

Buddy of mine made a 22 yd frontal qtr shot at a 15 yr old 346 inch bull elk in NM last year. He used a 372 gn arrow tipped with a 100 gn wac'em head from a 60 lb Elite Z28 . Went 4 feet into the animal and the head was sticking out 4 inches in front of the right rear leg..went 40 yds and dropped dead...Now ask yourself this, if thats what it can do to an old battle hardened bull elk why cant that setup be applied to a Mulie or Whitetail of any age/size?....If you just wanna focus on blowing through bone make your arrows heavy but if you want a good mix of speed and power and effectiveness, meet somewhere in the middle with a razor sharp BH..

kebees4 · 08-12-2009, 08:25 AM

I will take speed over arrow weight. That will make up for a few yards of misjudgment of distance. A good shot and you don't have to worry about KE.

JAVI · 08-12-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kebees4

I will take speed over arrow weight. That will make up for a few yards of misjudgment of distance. A good shot and you don't have to worry about KE.

Just out of curiosity, how much speed do you think it takes to make up for a 5 yard misjudge?
What are the parameters by which you arrive at an acceptable speed...?
In addition, what yardage is the maximum that you would consider making a shot on a game animal under ideal conditions...?
Not picking on you but I want to run a little experiment and your comment spurred me to ask...

hunter2678 · 08-12-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

Just out of curiosity, how much speed do you think it takes to make up for a 5 yard misjudge?
What are the parameters by which you arrive at an acceptable speed...?
In addition, what yardage is the maximum that you would consider making a shot on a game animal under ideal conditions...?
Not picking on you but I want to run a little experiment and your comment spurred me to ask...

Oh I'd say at least 330+ havi....

..you're def settin him up aren't ya!?

JAVI · 08-12-2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter2678

Oh I'd say at least 330+ havi....

..you're def settin him up aren't ya!?

Not really...

If you want we can go with the 330 fps.. but vs what speed? In other words if I have a bow that shoots a 400 grain arrow at 270 fps.. how much would I have to increase the speed to makeup for a 5 yard misjudge in distance... would 60 fps do it?

hunter2678 · 08-12-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

Not really...

If you want we can go with the 330 fps.. but vs what speed? In other words if I have a bow that shoots a 400 grain arrow at 270 fps.. how much would I have to increase the speed to makeup for a 5 yard misjudge in distance... would 60 fps do it?

To save him the trouble at 270 youd need no more than a few fps if any.....once you get above 280 fps the drop is pretty much negligable in most hunting situations..unless you shoot a 500 gn arrow or heavier then you may run into some yardage situations.

I use a single fixed pin dead on at 25-27 and am shooting around 290 fps so I dont really have a dog in this fight..

JAVI · 08-12-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter2678

To save him the trouble at 270 youd need no more than a few fps if any.....once you get above 280 fps the drop is pretty much negligable in most hunting situations..unless you shoot a 500 gn arrow or heavier then you may run into some yardage situations.

I use a single fixed pin dead on at 25-27 and am shooting around 290 fps so I dont really have a dog in this fight..

You're just no fun...

hunter2678 · 08-12-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

You're just no fun...

the supense was killin me!!!

Ohansolo · 08-12-2009, 10:16 AM

If the misjudge is between 25-30 yards and you are shooting 270 fps I'm thinking like 3-5% increase. If we are talking about a misjudge between 40-45 yards I am thinking 10 -15% increase would be needed to makeup for that drop. I am sure there must be a formula to figure out exactly how much. In any case if any of you figure out a way to get 15% more fps from the same bow, be sure to let me know.

JAVI · 08-12-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter2678

the supense was killin me!!!

Roughly the 5 yard drop at 20 to 25 for an 400 grain arrow fired at 270 fps is -2.05" at 330fps the same weight arrow would drop -1.03" Difference approximately 1"

500 grain arrow at 250fps... 20 to 25 drop 2.56" 500/310 = -1.3"

Interesting ain't it...

kebees4 · 08-12-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

Just out of curiosity, how much speed do you think it takes to make up for a 5 yard misjudge?
What are the parameters by which you arrive at an acceptable speed...?
In addition, what yardage is the maximum that you would consider making a shot on a game animal under ideal conditions...?
Not picking on you but I want to run a little experiment and your comment spurred me to ask...

We were just playing around with arrows in my sons bow Sunday at the range.He is shooting 52# and 27" draw. With a 320 grain light speed he was shooting 252 FPS. With a 260 grain Gold Tip the speed went to 278 FPS. We took both arrows to range and the Gold Tip arrow shot about 5" higher at 30 yards. This is actual results not a computer program making estimates. Now that don't answer the question you asked but the heavier or slower the arrow the more the arc you get when you shoot. The flatter the arrow flies the less chance of a mistake.

JAVI · 08-12-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kebees4

We were just playing around with arrows in my sons bow Sunday at the range.He is shooting 52# and 27" draw. With a 320 grain light speed he was shooting 252 FPS. With a 260 grain Gold Tip the speed went to 278 FPS. We took both arrows to range and the Gold Tip arrow shot about 5" higher at 30 yards. This is actual results not a computer program making estimates. Now that don't answer the question you asked but the heavier or slower the arrow the more the arc you get when you shoot. The flatter the arrow flies the less chance of a mistake.

now go sight his bow in with the heavy arrows to hit dead on at 20... then shoot and mark the drop.. then re-sight in with the lighter arrow and re do the test.. the difference won't be what you expect..

Comparing th drop between a heavy arrow and a light arrow without resighting proves nothing... except that you need to resight...

kebees4 · 08-12-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

now go sight his bow in with the heavy arrows to hit dead on at 20... then shoot and mark the drop.. then re-sight in with the lighter arrow and re do the test.. the difference won't be what you expect..

Comparing th drop between a heavy arrow and a light arrow without resighting proves nothing... except that you need to resight...

It show how much more arc is is the arrows path at different speeds. 20 yards is too close to do it at. We also shot a crossbow Sunday with 2219 arrows at and 60 grains difference with about 3" difference in impact at 20 yards. I will do what you want over the weekend when I have the time. Yes I can sight in the lighter or heavier to hit right but the heavier and slower the arrow the more it will arc during its travel. So the flatter it travels the more room there is for error.

JAVI · 08-12-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kebees4

It show how much more arc is is the arrows path at different speeds. 20 yards is too close to do it at. We also shot a crossbow Sunday with 2219 arrows at and 60 grains difference with about 3" difference in impact at 20 yards. I will do what you want over the weekend when I have the time. Yes I can sight in the lighter or heavier to hit right but the heavier and slower the arrow the more it will arc during its travel. So the flatter it travels the more room there is for error.

Try it.. the difference in drop from one setup to another isn't nearly as great as some imagine..

By the way those estimates... from the program are good enough to build sight tapes to 100 yards..

kebees4 · 08-13-2009, 08:34 AM

We use sight tapes and they are pretty good. On the bow I was talking about there is about 1/4" between 20 & 30 yard on the tape shooting the 320 grain arrow. I will get out this weekend and zero in both arrows at 20 then shoot 25 & 30 without moving the sight. We was a a 3D shoot last night and we were shooting from a tree stand at 2 targets. 1 was 20 yards and other was 26 yards he didn't adjust sight score 12 ring first target and ended up below 10 ring 2nd shot. So the 6 yards difference caused the arrow to drop 2.5" -3.5". That was only 1 shot and need to shoot groups to be sure. He shoots the heavier arrows because the light arrow are close to the lower limits for that bow.

kebees4 · 08-14-2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

Try it.. the difference in drop from one setup to another isn't nearly as great as some imagine..

By the way those estimates... from the program are good enough to build sight tapes to 100 yards..

Did the test today. Zero bow in at 20 then shot 25 then 30 with the following results. The bow is a diamond liberty at 52# draw.

First arrows were Easton 400 light speeds 28.5" long 320 grains traveling 252 FPS
Zero at 20 yards
3.5" low at 25 yards
5.25" low at 30 yards

Then shot goldtip 500 ultra light 27" long 260 grains traveling 278 FPS
Zero at 20
1/2" low at 25
2" low at 30

So what I am saying is the faster the arrow the flatter arrow path and then you can make more of an error judging distance and still in the kill zone. Even at 3D if you was to judge distance 20 yards and it was really 30 you would probably still end up in the 10 ring with the lighter faster arrow. The heavier arrow you would be lucky to end up with an 8.
I hope I made since with this.

JAVI · 08-14-2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kebees4

Did the test today. Zero bow in at 20 then shot 25 then 30 with the following results. The bow is a diamond liberty at 52# draw.

First arrows were Easton 400 light speeds 28.5" long 320 grains traveling 252 FPS
Zero at 20 yards
3.5" low at 25 yards
5.25" low at 30 yards

Then shot goldtip 500 ultra light 27" long 260 grains traveling 278 FPS
Zero at 20
1/2" low at 25
2" low at 30

So what I am saying is the faster the arrow the flatter arrow path and then you can make more of an error judging distance and still in the kill zone. Even at 3D if you was to judge distance 20 yards and it was really 30 you would probably still end up in the 10 ring with the lighter faster arrow. The heavier arrow you would be lucky to end up with an 8.
I hope I made since with this.

I would disagree with the 260 at 278 numbers, but that's only based on 50 years of experience.. since I wasn't there to witness it.. 26 fps is not enough to make that extreme of a difference at those ranges without other influence.. and I don't need a program to tell me that..

kebees4 · 08-15-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

Just out of curiosity, how much speed do you think it takes to make up for a 5 yard misjudge?
What are the parameters by which you arrive at an acceptable speed...?
In addition, what yardage is the maximum that you would consider making a shot on a game animal under ideal conditions...?
Not picking on you but I want to run a little experiment and your comment spurred me to ask...

I don't have an acceptable speed. All I am saying is the faster the arrow the less arc it will have and less a chance of mistake. The arrows I shot was 60 FPS different and made a huge difference in trajectory.
Most shots I take are less than 30 yards that I take but under ideal conditions I am confident I could make 40 - 45 yard shots. Where I hunt that is not going to happen. From what I am told go to some western states you better be ready to 50 -60 yards. That is a long shot with a bow.

JAVI · 08-15-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kebees4

I don't have an acceptable speed. All I am saying is the faster the arrow the less arc it will have and less a chance of mistake. The arrows I shot was 60 FPS different and made a huge difference in trajectory.
Most shots I take are less than 30 yards that I take but under ideal conditions I am confident I could make 40 - 45 yard shots. Where I hunt that is not going to happen. From what I am told go to some western states you better be ready to 50 -60 yards. That is a long shot with a bow.

60 fps will no doubt make a difference in trajectory.. all I'm saying is the difference is as spectacular as some might think..

kebees4 · 08-15-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVI

60 fps will no doubt make a difference in trajectory.. all I'm saying is the difference is as spectacular as some might think..

Back to arrow weight. What I originally was saying is you don't need heavy arrows. With the lighter faster arrows they shoot flatter and can make more error in judging distance. The lighter faster arrow had almost no drop compared heavier arrow. It was 2" compared to 5". My sons bow that shot 203 FPS last year blew through both of a bucks shoulder blades. His arrows weight 316 grains out of a 40# Bear Odyssey 2. It doesn't take a lot of KE to get it done.

JAVI · 08-15-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kebees4

Back to arrow weight. What I originally was saying is you don't need heavy arrows. With the lighter faster arrows they shoot flatter and can make more error in judging distance. The lighter faster arrow had almost no drop compared heavier arrow. It was 2" compared to 5". My sons bow that shot 203 FPS last year blew through both of a bucks shoulder blades. His arrows weight 316 grains out of a 40# Bear Odyssey 2. It doesn't take a lot of KE to get it done.

Ok... I'll stick with heavier arrows.. even for 3-D

sgmathews92 · 08-15-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kebees4

It doesn't take a lot of KE to get it done.

Just proper shot placement