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Old 01-09-2011, 11:50 AM   #1
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Default Thoughts on bows after the ATA

Why is it the industry has taken this long to address the riser torque from cable rods, cams, flexing risers, etc?

It seems a lot of companies are now jumping in to address this situation.
Bowtech: FLX Guard
G5: Ti Flex rod/Centroid cams
Darton: Curved cable rod
Mathews: Reverse assist roller

You can't tell me other bow engineers didn't know about this. At first I thought it was gimmick but after setting up and testing thousands of bows, I can tell you it's real and it makes a difference. Bows that address these problems are much easier to tune.

Why did it take this long to address this problem and why is it only a handful of companies are looking into correcting this problem?

I don't understand the concept of making a product "good enough" it will sell. I would want to build the best product I possible could.

Companies that continue to try to improve archery and educating the consumer are really helping the industry. Eventually, those that coast or continue the same-old, same-old will eventually find smaller sales figures.

I say thank you to the bow companies that continue to push the boundaries of bow development. It helps keep people interested in our favorite past time.
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:55 AM   #2
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i have been take some of look at ATA live, and website of archery, and i do like the look diamond deadeye make, and i would love to see quest bow to make single cam as z7 or deadeye as limb style
after wait long to curious about invaison and it doesnt surpiser me i would say i'm stick with different as i'm fan single cam bow
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:10 PM   #3
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Default Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Why is it the industry has taken this long to address the riser torque from cable rods, cams, flexing risers, etc?

It seems a lot of companies are now jumping in to address this situation.
Bowtech: FLX Guard
G5: Ti Flex rod/Centroid cams
Darton: Curved cable rod
Mathews: Reverse assist roller

You can't tell me other bow engineers didn't know about this. At first I thought it was gimmick but after setting up and testing thousands of bows, I can tell you it's real and it makes a difference. Bows that address these problems are much easier to tune.

Why did it take this long to address this problem and why is it only a handful of companies are looking into correcting this problem?

I don't understand the concept of making a product "good enough" it will sell. I would want to build the best product I possible could.

Companies that continue to try to improve archery and educating the consumer are really helping the industry. Eventually, those that coast or continue the same-old, same-old will eventually find smaller sales figures.

I say thank you to the bow companies that continue to push the boundaries of bow development. It helps keep people interested in our favorite past time.
Many will will argue it hard to best a cable rod system. Some also think simple is best in bows. They got to try something different to make bows more attracting to sale from last year. Most change as been around and done over and over agian. Old timers get a kick out of new things that were done years ago and brought back. Heck want to get it right elimanate the cable rod and shoot through the cables and risors and elimanate lean all together.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:39 PM   #4
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even with flex gaurds and all these no torque systems, your never gonna eliminate all the side to side riser torque. So is it that big of an advancement in engineering...I say no. I mean I don't think it's a bad area of technology to explore, but to say that those bow companies who aren't focused these "no torque" systems are lacking anything as far as advancing bow design and technology is kinda silly
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:58 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by acesup View Post
even with flex gaurds and all these no torque systems, your never gonna eliminate all the side to side riser torque. So is it that big of an advancement in engineering...I say no. I mean I don't think it's a bad area of technology to explore, but to say that those bow companies who aren't focused these "no torque" systems are lacking anything as far as advancing bow design and technology is kinda silly
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
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Old 01-09-2011, 02:00 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Daniel Boone View Post
Many will will argue it hard to best a cable rod system. Some also think simple is best in bows. They got to try something different to make bows more attracting to sale from last year. Most change as been around and done over and over agian. Old timers get a kick out of new things that were done years ago and brought back. Heck want to get it right elimanate the cable rod and shoot through the cables and risors and elimanate lean all together.
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Makes me wonder why Martin's X system was never more popular. I guess many took a look and thought that backing a nock through the cables a couple inches to the string was "too busy".

I'm sure more companies will in time explore the idea of reducing torque, but I still feel the only way to get rid of it is to be rid of the cable rod/slide or roller guards all together.

On the same issue, from another era, does anynody remember the days of 4-wheel compounds, before the advent of the cable guard? Duh!!!!!!

Does anybody remember 48" bows where the side load wasn't near as severe as it is today? Duh!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:37 PM   #7
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Default Funny thing

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Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
Makes me wonder why Martin's X system was never more popular. I guess many took a look and thought that backing a nock through the cables a couple inches to the string was "too busy".

I'm sure more companies will in time explore the idea of reducing torque, but I still feel the only way to get rid of it is to be rid of the cable rod/slide or roller guards all together.

On the same issue, from another era, does anynody remember the days of 4-wheel compounds, before the advent of the cable guard? Duh!!!!!!

Does anybody remember 48" bows where the side load wasn't near as severe as it is today? Duh!!!!!!!!
I walked the ATA floor with a engineer who been designing for many years. Was interesting hearing who did what and when. Bows shot great scores though back in 70's. Like he said you got to do something everthing. Torguless bow now that would be interesting.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
It's called planned obsolescence, it exists in about every industry and made the computer & microprocessor industry bazillions of dollars.

Bow companies are just as guilty, several of them have YEARS worth of improvements already R&D'd, patents, and designs ready for the CNC machine they hold back for the very purpose of slowly reeling in us, and our wallets in the process.

Only problem is, it works.


Definition:
Business practice of deliberately outdating an item (much before the end of its useful life) by stopping its supply or service support and introducing a newer (often incompatible) model or version. Its objective is to prod the consumer or user to abandon the currently owned item in favor of the 'upgrade.' Most prevalent in computer hardware and software industry
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
i would have to agree with you...


My Martin had the nitrous x cams which is the shoot through system and
I truly felt it was the easiest bow to tune and easier to shoot well than other bows I have had.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think any bow company not trying to advance the technology is very lacking whether it is tune-ability, speed, noise, whatever. Too me it means the bow company is extremely arrogant. They think the consumer is gullible enough that they make minor tweaks to bows and the consumer will still buy a new bow year or so.

As someone who sells bows, many bow shoppers are a lot smarter these days. Like all things, the internet is providing a lot more education for the consumer and this will force the bow companies to adapt or die.
I think you missunderstood my post. I didn't say that bow companies who don't offer up new technologies are a problem, of course we as consumers want new advancements each year, I just said that the bow companies who are not choosing to focus those technologies on these no torque cable systems are'nt doing any kind of disservice to the bow industry or to us as consumers. In your our initial post you seemed to be highly impressed with all these no torque cable guard systems and bothered by those who were not persuing this technology, and the point I was trying to make is that since they don't fullly eliminate, what they say they eliminate, it's not so huge an advancement anyway and it's ok to explore other technologies. A bow is an assymetrical machine and we hold it on one side to shoot, therefore no technology can ever completely remove torque anyway, that is the human aspect of archery.

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Old 01-09-2011, 06:34 PM   #11
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So are you saying this is a problem that doesn't exist? Or are you saying it's not worth trying to address this problem? I'm not saying any of these attempts to fix the problem are perfect but they do improve the system.

Have you ever tried to tune one of these bows that have a huge amount of rotational torque...it's impossible. I've sent an entire shipment of bows back to a manufacturer once because they would not tune. I proved it.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:48 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Archerdad View Post
i would have to agree with you...


My Martin had the nitrous x cams which is the shoot through system and
I truly felt it was the easiest bow to tune and easier to shoot well than other bows I have had.

Many of the top companies had shoot through risors for good reasons. It is a better mouse trap.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:50 PM   #13
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Default Honestly

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Originally Posted by bfisher View Post
Makes me wonder why Martin's X system was never more popular. I guess many took a look and thought that backing a nock through the cables a couple inches to the string was "too busy".

I'm sure more companies will in time explore the idea of reducing torque, but I still feel the only way to get rid of it is to be rid of the cable rod/slide or roller guards all together.

On the same issue, from another era, does anynody remember the days of 4-wheel compounds, before the advent of the cable guard? Duh!!!!!!

Does anybody remember 48" bows where the side load wasn't near as severe as it is today? Duh!!!!!!!!
Several of the bows and manufactures are coming out with shoot through risors.
Main reason is its a target thing. Most sales are hunting bows.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:03 PM   #14
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So are you saying this is a problem that doesn't exist? Or are you saying it's not worth trying to address this problem? I'm not saying any of these attempts to fix the problem are perfect but they do improve the system.

Have you ever tried to tune one of these bows that have a huge amount of rotational torque...it's impossible. I've sent an entire shipment of bows back to a manufacturer once because they would not tune. I proved it.


wow your not getting it. I'm saying that it's a "problem" that you can't address, can not address, can not fix it. You can never remove the human element so no technology will ever completely eliminate riser torque, or cable caurde torque or whatever you want to call it...BUT THATS OK, thats all I'm saying. If a bow company wants to give you a bow with a no torque cable guard system, THATS OK, I never said there was anyting wrong with that. I simply simply said that there is ALSO nothing wrong with bow companies who choose NOT TO develope bows with those cable guard systems. Thats it, plain and simple.

As far as tuning bows goes. That is entirely subjective to whomever is doing the tuning, and what methods they use, and wheather or not they actually know what there doing. It also has to do with who is shooting the bow and weather or not they too know what there doing. I don't know what you mean as far as "one of these bows that have a huge amount of rotational torque." As far as my personal experience, I have also sold and tuned many bows and never saw any kind of pattern that standard cable guard bows won't tune. That includes bows from the late 80' as well as all the modern new age compound bows from many different manufacturers. I never had any problems getting bows to tune, but I won't make some crazy absolute statement like, "I proved it," that's just nonsense.

Don't want to make this a pi***ng match, I just don't agree with you.

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Old 01-09-2011, 07:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Several of the bows and manufactures are coming out with shoot through risors.
Main reason is its a target thing. Most sales are hunting bows.
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shoot through risers do not solve the problem but a choot thoguth cable system does. Now a shoot though riser adn cable system like the alternative exact was a very good idea that never cought on.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:31 PM   #16
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Ok, let's break this down.

1) Will Human error will always exist? Yes, but it too can be improved upon.
2) Rotational torque applied to roller or cable guard exists on all compound bows unless they are shoot thrus
3) Can bows with some rotational torque be paper tuned? yes.
4) Can bows with a lot of rotational torque be paper tuned? no they cannot.
5) Does a bow with less rotational torque shoot a wider range of spines better? Yes.
6) Do most of these new designs help eliminate some rotational torque? Yes.
7) Does this make these bows shoot better? Yes.

So why would we not want this as archers?

I get the impression that you think these changes to bows is a waste of time. Here we will have to disagree and obviously the engineers of these companies also disagree with you.

I've owned my pro shop for quite some time now and I have proven it to myself that these setups are superior to old way of doing things.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:58 PM   #17
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geez I don't know how you have gotten any impression. I have remained entirely neutral, JUST STATING FACTS. Did I not make it clear in my first post that bow companies who choose to produce no torque cable systems are aok with me? I never said I wouldn't shoot them or wouldn't sell them.

What exactly qualifies as a bow with "a lot of rotational torque," you still have not made this clear? Is it any bow that does not offer some kind of torque reducing cable system. Do you not sell Hoyt, or PSE, or Elite, because they all use standard cable, or roller guard systems or the models from Bowtech, G5, Darton, or Mathews that don't offer these systems, because according to you these won't shoot or tune well. It seems that your limiting your options here.

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Old 01-09-2011, 08:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Reed View Post
shoot through risers do not solve the problem but a choot thoguth cable system does. Now a shoot though riser adn cable system like the alternative exact was a very good idea that never cought on.
Agree. But any can make a shoot through bow split the cable easy. Seen it done many times.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:56 PM   #19
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Ok, let's break this down.

1) Will Human error will always exist? Yes, but it too can be improved upon.
2) Rotational torque applied to roller or cable guard exists on all compound bows unless they are shoot thrus
3) Can bows with some rotational torque be paper tuned? yes.
4) Can bows with a lot of rotational torque be paper tuned? no they cannot.
5) Does a bow with less rotational torque shoot a wider range of spines better? Yes.
6) Do most of these new designs help eliminate some rotational torque? Yes.
7) Does this make these bows shoot better? Yes.

So why would we not want this as archers?

I get the impression that you think these changes to bows is a waste of time. Here we will have to disagree and obviously the engineers of these companies also disagree with you.

I've owned my pro shop for quite some time now and I have proven it to myself that these setups are superior to old way of doing things.
These same engineers your talking about will have to find something different in years to come and most likely have in the past. Saw some good cams that will be very easy to tune and improvements. Carbon rod cable slide flexes quite a bit if you watch it in slow motion.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:44 AM   #20
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All bows have some rotational torque.
The only way to eliminate all rotational torque is a shoot through cable system.
If you can eliminate some of the torque, the bow will tune easier.
NOT ALL BOWS have a lot of torque.
Shorter axle bows have more than longer axle bows.
Certain cam designs cause more.

If you don't have the tools to check for it, here's an easy way.
Put your arrow in your bow. Align the arrow and the string. Now compare the string to the location of your sight pins. A right handed shooter will notice his pins are left of the string. In a perfect world they would be aligned perfectly. Now the more rotational torque, the farther left those sight pins.

You asked for some examples that have a lot of torque, here are two Bowtech 82nd airborne, Mathews Monster.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:24 AM   #21
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Chris, I agree with you on how easy it is to tune a torque free system. When I first decided to learn to do my own tuning, I was shooting a Sceptor Nitrous X. It took me just a few minutes to get bullet holes. I was wondering about all the fuss about tuning a bow. It was easy!

I've since learned that cable rod bows are not quite so easy.

However, ease of tuning is not high on my criteria for a bow. The number one thing is how it feels when I shoot it and even more important, how accurately I can shoot it.

I still have the Sceptor, and would still be shooting it if I could shoot it as accurately as my ProElite. The PE is a lot more difficult to tune, but I like shooting it and I think I get better scores with it.

Tuning is something that is done only a couple of times a year. Maybe more if there are problems or you are switching your set up from indoor to 3D or field.
So ease of tuning not too big a deal when deciding on a new bow.

I hope the engineers come up with bows that are easy to tune and shoot great, but for me the shooting is a lot more important than the tuning.

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Old 01-10-2011, 12:28 PM   #22
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I think it is a problem that gets magnified and worsened the shorter bows get. Is a short A to A bow that much of an advantage? How short will they go? I know myself I will stay with bows in the 33" to 35" range. I actually hunted Turkeys out of a blind with my Sentinel a year or so ago. It was not a problem at all. The difference between a 35" and a 31" A to A bow is 2" on each end. Is that a huge advantage? The longer riser has many pluses, but are over looked in the quest for a shorter hunting bow. Are consumers getting caught up in this marketing blitz that shorter is better? Not Me!!


I do have a problem with companies that introduce technology to the consumer and basically use them as test rats. New tech can be a good thing but Come'On Man get it right before you pit it on the market!!

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Old 01-21-2011, 06:55 AM   #23
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I do understand that a majority of consumers purchasing bows are not concerned with torque, lean, twist, etc. but there are a number of archers who are mindful of this. I do not understand why there is just more of a shoot thru option. Adjustments in cable rods etc is definately an improvement, and to those who aren't interested in a shoot thru option it is a nice alternative. But a company like OK Archery out of Germany offers a cable rod and shoot thru option. I think it is a great idea. TAP (and others) offered a way to retrofit CP bows with the shoot thru roller guard, how much more effort would it have taken for BT to offer both options? I believe that it would have boosted sales for BT...of course I am only basing that on the fact that I would have bought one.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:57 AM   #24
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I think it is a problem that gets magnified and worsened the shorter bows get. Is a short A to A bow that much of an advantage? How short will they go? I know myself I will stay with bows in the 33" to 35" range. I actually hunted Turkeys out of a blind with my Sentinel a year or so ago. It was not a problem at all. The difference between a 35" and a 31" A to A bow is 2" on each end. Is that a huge advantage? The longer riser has many pluses, but are over looked in the quest for a shorter hunting bow. Are consumers getting caught up in this marketing blitz that shorter is better? Not Me!!


I do have a problem with companies that introduce technology to the consumer and basically use them as test rats. New tech can be a good thing but Come'On Man get it right before you pit it on the market!!

Dan
Agreed with all, esp. the last statement. I am leary of buying new tech on a bow in th first year. Seems that the average Joe exposes issues that should have been worked out months before the product hits the market.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:03 AM   #25
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It seems some companies are more concerned about the bottom line versus offering customers viable options and/or a proven product.

The idea of let's just get the product out there as fast as we can and we'll make changes as necessary is getting old. Especially if you have No customer service.

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Originally Posted by alaz View Post
I do understand that a majority of consumers purchasing bows are not concerned with torque, lean, twist, etc. but there are a number of archers who are mindful of this. I do not understand why there is just more of a shoot thru option. Adjustments in cable rods etc is definately an improvement, and to those who aren't interested in a shoot thru option it is a nice alternative. But a company like OK Archery out of Germany offers a cable rod and shoot thru option. I think it is a great idea. TAP (and others) offered a way to retrofit CP bows with the shoot thru roller guard, how much more effort would it have taken for BT to offer both options? I believe that it would have boosted sales for BT...of course I am only basing that on the fact that I would have bought one.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:21 AM   #26
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Many of the top companies had shoot through risors for good reasons. It is a better mouse trap.
DB
York wasn't too successful with their shoot through riser, which looks
like PSEs' new bow. I guess sometimes good ideas come about before
people are ready to accept them.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:22 PM   #27
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What I want to know is...with all these cable rod bows being so inferior...how in the world did Randy Ulmer and Burley Hall shoot so good back then...little alone now ??

Seriously...just how "perfect" does a tune have to be ?? Sorry Chris, but it sounds like your buying into the Bowtech hype.

IMO
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:30 PM   #28
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X2! I Agree!

Dan



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What I want to know is...with all these cable rod bows being so inferior...how in the world did Randy Ulmer and Burley Hall shoot so good back then...little alone now ??

Seriously...just how "perfect" does a tune have to be ?? Sorry Chris, but it sounds like your buying into the Bowtech hype.

IMO
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:49 PM   #29
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Everyone is welcome to the opinions, that's the point of the website.

That said, with the hooter shooter, lasers and testing I've done, I'll stick to my own theories and proven test until someone can prove to me different.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:39 PM   #30
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I have a genuine question for you Chris? On some of those trc system bows, like the new Athens Afflixion or the new Martin bows here is my concern...it's tuning related. So lets say I'm shooting the Martin Firecat single cam, right? Ok so I start setting up the bow and I adjust the yoke to remove all the lean out of the idler wheel.... Well then, that idler wheel is now sitting straight up and down when the bow is not at full draw, right?... but if the cables are going to be moving inwards, thus letting off some torque, then the lean on my idler wheel has just changed (because when I set it the cable were farther away from the bows centerline)... at full draw my idler wheel is now leaning (top end away from the bow), right?.... so why would I want to shoot a bow where the idler/cam lean is constantly changing throughout the shot, how is that good for accuracy?....

Does this make sense?

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Old 01-21-2011, 06:43 PM   #31
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Everyone is welcome to the opinions, that's the point of the website.

That said, with the hooter shooter, lasers and testing I've done, I'll stick to my own theories and proven test until someone can prove to me different.
Why are the guys shooting the Bowtechs in world compition not shooting the flex gaurd? Be interesting to see this year if in the world Fita if there using the flex gaurd system from Bowtech. Will we see pros at Vegas and Indoor nationals shooting the flex gaurd? I want to see these bows in proven hands of the worlds best. I did notice some countries are shooting Bowtech and they have made the shoot offs on archery tv.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:26 PM   #32
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What I want to know is...with all these cable rod bows being so inferior...how in the world did Randy Ulmer and Burley Hall shoot so good back then...little alone now ??

Seriously...just how "perfect" does a tune have to be ?? Sorry Chris, but it sounds like your buying into the Bowtech hype.

IMO

At the risk of sounding like an 'old fart', bows back then were a lot longer than 31 or so inches. Once your AtoA length reaches say 36 inches and longer, the torgue effects of the side mounted cable rod are much less noticeable. Just 10 years ago, one rarely heard the complaints about that rod like you do now. The shorter the bow, the greater effect that rod will pose. If the manufacturers are going to continue putting out such short bows, then yes, the need to rethink the cabling system.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:51 PM   #33
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Why are the guys shooting the Bowtechs in world compition not shooting the flex gaurd? Be interesting to see this year if in the world Fita if there using the flex gaurd system from Bowtech. Will we see pros at Vegas and Indoor nationals shooting the flex gaurd? I want to see these bows in proven hands of the worlds best. I did notice some countries are shooting Bowtech and they have made the shoot offs on archery tv.
DB
Was the flex guard available on the bows they shot or where they shooting Brigadiers and old Connies? I don't think anyone would trade down to a shorter bow just to get the flex guard. Will be interesting to see if they make an appearance this year with the Specialist using one.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:52 PM   #34
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I have a genuine question for you Chris? On some of those trc system bows, like the new Athens Afflixion or the new Martin bows here is my concern...it's tuning related. So lets say I'm shooting the Martin Firecat single cam, right? Ok so I start setting up the bow and I adjust the yoke to remove all the lean out of the idler wheel.... Well then, that idler wheel is now sitting straight up and down when the bow is not at full draw, right?... but if the cables are going to be moving inwards, thus letting off some torque, then the lean on my idler wheel has just changed (because when I set it the cable were farther away from the bows centerline)... at full draw my idler wheel is now leaning (top end away from the bow), right?.... so why would I want to shoot a bow where the idler/cam lean is constantly changing throughout the shot, how is that good for accuracy?....

Does this make sense?
I follow what you are saying but these are different issues. The idler needs to be in the "optimal" position. Notice I didn't say perfectly straight. The odds of getting one that will be perfectly straight at rest and perfectly straight a full draw are slim to none.

So what I want is one that is nearly perfect at rest and nearly perfect at full draw. This will be the least amount of deviation.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:59 PM   #35
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The odds of getting one that will be perfectly straight at rest and perfectly straight a full draw are slim to none.

So what I want is one that is nearly perfect at rest and nearly perfect at full draw. This will be the least amount of deviation.
I assume you mean a bow with a standard cable gaurd. Ok so if near perfect, and minimal movement is what you are looking for, how can you get less movement with a cable system that actually moves? If you want minimal movement, wouldn't the standard system be best? It seems like there's always gonna be a compromise. Either you have less riser torque, but more cam lean movement, or just the opposite.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:02 PM   #36
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I follow what you are saying but these are different issues. The idler needs to be in the "optimal" position. Notice I didn't say perfectly straight. The odds of getting one that will be perfectly straight at rest and perfectly straight a full draw are slim to none.

So what I want is one that is nearly perfect at rest and nearly perfect at full draw. This will be the least amount of deviation.
Absolutely...I'm all for seeing companies trying to build a better mouse trap. I do wish there were more shoot thru options...seems like most would agree that is the best system. I think that a number of companies trying to address torque is in response to customer concern, but sometimes I question the technique. Darton's seems most problem free and consistent, but I question if it really makes a difference. I also wonder if this quick shift in torsional forces on the cables affect the momentum/ movement of the bow at the shot...but me English teacher...just a thought, with no science behind it I did read a thread were a fellow compared the draw cycle of the 3800 2010 (straight rod) to this years model and he said he thought the draw cycle this year was stiffer at the end...he attributed it to the slide trying to work its way on the bend. He also noted faster speeds on the 2010...maybe more friction, maybe just coincidence and placebo affect???
I believe K and K has a similar cable rod design, except the cables will ride along the rod...no slide.

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Old 01-21-2011, 08:44 PM   #37
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Either you have less riser torque, but more cam lean movement, or just the opposite.
Which bows have you proven this to be the case on?
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:49 PM   #38
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well isn't the point of the trc style cable guards to reduce riser torque? So I'll assume they are doing just that, but my post was directed more towards the comment you made about how when addressing cam lean, you want minimal movement throughout the draw cycle and shot and I wanted to know how you get minimal movement with a cable system that moves. I was humoring you.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:19 PM   #39
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well isn't the point of the trc style cable guards to reduce riser torque? So I'll assume they are doing just that, but my post was directed more towards the comment you made about how when addressing cam lean, you want minimal movement throughout the draw cycle and shot and I wanted to know how you get minimal movement with a cable system that moves. I was humoring you.
I should have been born in Missouri, "the show me state". Whenever I hear anything in archery that is all based on theory only, I want someone to prove it to show me! This is how I am with all my testing. All based on facts not theory.

The shorter the axle to axle, the more the cable system is going to try to pull the cam out of alignment. So if I can allow those same cables to flex inward, this means there is less pull on the cable which in turn means there is less lean to the cam or idler.

I don't know how else to explain it. Now if you have another theory as to why the ilder leans, please provide some more details.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:59 PM   #40
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I don't have any thoughts on bows, but looking at all your ATA pictures has made me archery sick. I REALLY miss my club in California and all my shooting buddies.

I seriously need to find some buddies and a regular archery hang out
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