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Old 01-22-2011, 09:21 AM   #1
old buck
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Lightbulb Accuracy Robbing Bow Torque

Hello,
I have done considerable study on bow generated torque and cam tilt. It's been very interesting and has resulted in a patent pending solution I introduced the product at last month's ATA show. I belive the information contained in my documents will be of interest to all archers that are inquisitive about bow mechanics.

BIG problem...I cannot upload the files to this forum, they exceed the size limits. I tried....

Please go the this website for info.... tilttamer.com

I wish I could have just posted it on this forum.

Also, I hope I am not violating the forums rules, if I am will an administrator contact me with how to make my info available here.

Thanks
old buck

Last edited by old buck; 01-22-2011 at 09:23 AM. Reason: grammer
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:37 AM   #2
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interesting product. i would love to see some video of it in action .
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:46 AM   #3
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oldbuck email them to me at shoots@3dshoots.com and I'll put them on this thread.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:34 PM   #4
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Here are the files oldbuck asked me to post
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Cam Tilt for OnLine Forums.pdf (76.4 KB, 61 views)
File Type: pdf 1-Cam-Tilt.pdf (8.1 KB, 46 views)
File Type: pdf 2-Grip-Torque-Twist.pdf (20.0 KB, 48 views)
File Type: pdf 3-Grip-Torque-Twist-with-TT.pdf (20.0 KB, 40 views)
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:35 PM   #5
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Here's some more files
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Tilt Tamer - working positions.pdf (29.2 KB, 46 views)
File Type: pdf Tilt Tamer vs Standard Cable Guard Torque.pdf (47.8 KB, 48 views)
File Type: pdf Real world performance.pdf (48.0 KB, 46 views)
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:16 AM   #6
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Default Great idea.....

What's the difference between this product and twisting the cables up so there is no or little cam lean at full draw?
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator eye View Post
What's the difference between this product and twisting the cables up so there is no or little cam lean at full draw?
Twisting the yoke does not remove the side load on the cable guard. It does help with your cam lean though. This product reduces the load on the cable guard.
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:46 AM   #8
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Just shoot a bow with a flex guard, problem solved.
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:48 AM   #9
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Athens already has a cable guard that is angle like the torque tamer.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:29 AM   #10
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Thumbs up Athens...........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian H View Post
Athens already has a cable guard that is angle like the torque tamer.
I am aware of that...we will see what develops when my patent issues.
Thanks for the heads-up.........
oldbuck
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:58 AM   #11
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I don't understand how this improves accuracy. There is still the same sideways pressure applied to the cables as the string approaches brace.

As long at torque from the cable guard is consistent from shot to shot, reducing it or increasing it shouldn't matter for accuracy.

I've shot both torqueless (Nitrous X) and cable guard bows (Mathews, PSE & Hoyt) and don't see any difference in accuracy. The torqueless bows are super easy to tune, but don't seem to shoot any more accurately than any other bow. I don't know of any of my bad shots that couldn't be blamed on operator error.

Thanks,
Allen
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen View Post
I don't understand how this improves accuracy. There is still the same sideways pressure applied to the cables as the string approaches brace.

As long at torque from the cable guard is consistent from shot to shot, reducing it or increasing it shouldn't matter for accuracy.

I've shot both torqueless (Nitrous X) and cable guard bows (Mathews, PSE & Hoyt) and don't see any difference in accuracy. The torqueless bows are super easy to tune, but don't seem to shoot any more accurately than any other bow. I don't know of any of my bad shots that couldn't be blamed on operator error.

Thanks,
Allen
If it makes the bow much easier to tune, it's bound to make it easier
to shoot consistantly.
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:33 PM   #13
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Brian,

Good point, but I can get my bows to tune properly regardless of cable guard or not.

The Nitrous X with the shoot thru cable system takes about 30 minutes to tune, including group tuning. The other bows take quite a bit longer, but they are equally well tuned.

However, from reading the literature, it doesn't seem that ease of tuning is the source of the additional accuracy.

If it works, I'm all for it, but I don't see what the benefits are.

Allen
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:07 AM   #14
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Lightbulb Benifits of torque reduction...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen View Post
Brian,

Good point, but I can get my bows to tune properly regardless of cable guard or not.

The Nitrous X with the shoot thru cable system takes about 30 minutes to tune, including group tuning. The other bows take quite a bit longer, but they are equally well tuned.

However, from reading the literature, it doesn't seem that ease of tuning is the source of the additional accuracy.

If it works, I'm all for it, but I don't see what the benefits are.

Allen
Hello Allen,
As you said, the shoot thru cable systems are easier to tune. That is beacuse the bow does not torque itself due to the cam tilting problem. Now a skillfull archer is able to shoot a bow with torque very accuratley, but a bow that produces no torgue is much easier to consistently shoot well. A shooting machine will not have problems with torque, but we are not that consistent. The bow that generates torque is far more sensitive to bow hand position and torque. That sensitivity produces more shot errors. I think you will agree that its better to eliminate the source of the torque. That is what my device does.
Thanks
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:21 PM   #15
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I like the thinking behind your product! with that said doesnt Darton have a similar crooked cable gaurd as well? I have recently did some playing around with some shoot through systems on my hoyt Pro Elite. Now this bow is my favorite bow of all times. Before I tore the strings off it to put on my shoot thru system the bow was a consistant 60X shooter with cable gaurd installed. With the shoot through system the bow tuned up great and really aimed well. Prob better than with the cable gaurd. And that is where the good ended. What I found is without the added load applied to the cable gaurd at full draw it allowed any imperfect pressure in the grip to translate ten fold into the arrow and where it impacted. So as I played with it for a week or two I applied slight and i mean slight pressure at different points in the grip and the arrow would hit accordingly to the pressure. This set up was at best a 55X bow. I put another new set back on the way it was supposed to be and it was back to 59-60X and the shots went where they were aimed unlike they did with the shoot through system. I Would like to try this device because it reduces not eliminates the torque load which may be the best of both worlds. So thumbs up for another product to play with.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:31 PM   #16
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I will note that our findings on torque do not agree with each other. I feel that cable torque is necessary by adding stabilization at the back end of the bow at full draw. Without it the torque applied at he grip is translated to where the string meets the cam at full draw which will effect where the arrow goes. I do totally agree that cam lean has a major effect of the tunability and the shootability of any bow. I think of it as the string throwing a curve ball with your arrow. The string path is moved out of center and into the path of your arm. Bows with alot of lean like the 82nd airborn blasts my arm no matter what I do with it. A destroyer 350 with same brace doesnt even come close. Just my 2 cents in what I have found and believe
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:50 PM   #17
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I watched WIHOYT go through this test. I would be curious to have him try this tilt tamer. Might be the best of both worlds. Better tuning and still a small amount of torque still applied to the riser to help with the left/right shots issue.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:15 PM   #18
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Working on it Oldbuck you have a PM
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Old 01-26-2011, 07:58 AM   #19
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Please post your results.
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:20 PM   #20
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Lightbulb Preload with Tilt Tamer

Quote:
Originally Posted by wihoyt View Post
I like the thinking behind your product! with that said doesnt Darton have a similar crooked cable gaurd as well? I have recently did some playing around with some shoot through systems on my hoyt Pro Elite. Now this bow is my favorite bow of all times. Before I tore the strings off it to put on my shoot thru system the bow was a consistant 60X shooter with cable gaurd installed. With the shoot through system the bow tuned up great and really aimed well. Prob better than with the cable gaurd. And that is where the good ended. What I found is without the added load applied to the cable gaurd at full draw it allowed any imperfect pressure in the grip to translate ten fold into the arrow and where it impacted. So as I played with it for a week or two I applied slight and i mean slight pressure at different points in the grip and the arrow would hit accordingly to the pressure. This set up was at best a 55X bow. I put another new set back on the way it was supposed to be and it was back to 59-60X and the shots went where they were aimed unlike they did with the shoot through system. I Would like to try this device because it reduces not eliminates the torque load which may be the best of both worlds. So thumbs up for another product to play with.
The Tilt tamer has a small preload which is to the archers favor. Its always loads very sligtly in one direction which compensates for any plus or minus tolerance float due to manufacturing tolerances. A shoot thru harness has no preload and is free to float one way and then the other as you commented on, which may result in the loss of accuracy condition you described in your post.
Thanks for the thoughtfull comments.
oldbuck
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