Thoughts on bows after the ATA - Page 2

acesup · 01-21-2011, 10:18 PM

but if you set your idler lean while your cable/ flex gaurd is at static....torque and all, the idler is set to that amount of torque....right? So when that cable gaurd moves or flexes and that torque changes, your cam lean changes, and your saying that is somehow MINIMAL movement?

and what facts exactly have you provided me with, so far all it has been is your opinion. It is your opinion that these moving cable gaurd bows tune better and shoot better, but the fact here is that we have yet to see one win any kind of Major tournament, and that FACT is especially interesting considering the current trend towards short axle bows being shot in competition. You made a comment a few posts ago about the Mathews Monster having serious torque related problems, yet Levi Morgan or Chris White don't seem to have any problems when they shoot that bow. Or how about Dave Cousins when he shot the AM35 and Maxxis 35? That's a short bow with a regular cable gaurd, must be a problem right? What about Gary Smith Jr. taking 2nd at Louiville with his Maxxis 35? According to your "facts" these guys are all fools, but for me, I take those results as proof. Thats my "opinion" lol. Take this as another example: Years ago it was "fact" that short axle bows were, unforgiving and inaccurate....not so much anymore.

Chris · 01-21-2011, 10:42 PM

I would like to know why type of tuning experience you have?
How many years of shooting?
How many bows have you setup and tuned?
How many brands and models do you have access to?
Who have you been trained by?
Do you setup bows for a living?

acesup · 01-21-2011, 10:52 PM

lol, seriously?...I could give you all than info, but really whats the point? I've either set up 1 bow or 1 million, I've either shot a bow for 1 day or all my life and then it's a question of how old I am, I've either been trained by somebody that matters to you or I haven't, get the point. So really why does it even matter to you, because it shouldn't. I don't care where you work, who's trained you or how long you've been shooting or selling bows. It doesn't mean you know more than me, BUT in all fairness nothing I tell you should mean I know more than you either, and it was never my intention to come accross that way.

For someone who likes facts, I find it interesting that you attended the ATA show, yet you have not provided any info on these bows wer'e discussing direct from the designers/ engineers who built them, surely you must have spoken to one while you were there.

We're having a disscussion, debate, dissagreement, whatever you want to call it, you can either respond to my last post or you can't, I won't lose sleep either way.

Chris · 01-21-2011, 11:24 PM

I wanted to know how much education, experience whatever you want to call it when it comes to tuning bows, so I know who I am talking to.

If you want to talk about specific bows, just let me know and I'll show you or explain to you how you can test this stuff yourself.

I'm trying to relay my experiences in hopes that it helps others when they find issues they can't solve and have things happening that they don't understand.

If I am so wrong on this subject, why is it that Bowtech, G5, Darton, and Mathews are trying to find solutions to this non-problem? Do I think what they have come up with is the be-all end-all to the all the problems. Absolutely not but it's a start.

Here's a video for you. Start listening about 2:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CNQixvwh8Y

If you wish to disagree with what I'm telling you, that's fine.

Those that come to my shop do so because I'm extremely picky about how bows get setup. Call it tuning, supertuning or just being anal, I don't care. I set them up the properly or not at all. This is why guys drive 2 hours to have me work on their equipment.

I do this for a living everyday and have tuned and setup thousands of bows. I don't make this stuff up as a go along.

So I guess we will just have to disagree on this subject.

If anyone else need or wants more information, just let me know.

acesup · 01-21-2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Those that come to my shop do so because I'm extremely picky about how bows get setup. Call it tuning, supertuning or just being anal, I don't care. I set them up the properly or not at all. This is why guys drive 2 hours to have me work on their equipment.

I do this for a living everyday and have tuned and setup thousands of bows. I don't make this stuff up as a go along.

So I guess we will just have to disagree on this subject.

If anyone else need or wants more information, just let me know.

lol, I knew you couldn't resist giving me your "credentials."

So If I say I have alot of experience shooting, tuning, selling bows, you would actually believe me? Who cares, I post what I post and you respond to it or not, but you keep avoiding everything stated in my posts.
As far as the video goes, thats marketing for you. Let me guess, that guy is trying to sell G5 bows, right? lol. If you follow that logic, than no proffessional archer should shoot a single cam, because of the nock travel, or no one should shoot a reflexed riser bow for that matter because they are not as accurate or forgivng as a deflex riser, yet with the exception of Dietman and his deflex riser Money Maker at Vegas ALL tournaments last year were won with reflex or straight risers. I'll take the "limmited accuracy" that guys like Dave, Chance, Braden, and Reo experience with their torquey cam leany bows. you can't believe everything you see on tv?
We can agree to dissagree, call a truce, whatever, so other's can chime in and I'll go back to lurking

Supermag · 01-22-2011, 12:29 AM

acesup, why don't you go back to AT and start your arguements while hiding behind your username there? I, for one, am tired of you trying to start a fight over this without actually providing any information other than some past tournament results to back it up.

acesup · 01-22-2011, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermag

acesup, why don't you go back to AT and start your arguements while hiding behind your username there? I, for one, am tired of you trying to start a fight over this without actually providing any information other than some past tournament results to back it up.

Hilarious! This is the Internet you know...EVERYBODY hides behind there username. I'm in a different city, state, country, in my home, sitting on my sofa, but guess what SO ARE YOU!

And what fight are you talking about? I didn't say anything rude or disrespectful, Chris has been challenging every response just as I've been. It's a discussion...right? If it bothers you so much, then I for one can't imagine why you keep logging on to read it?

Did I not just say in my last post that we would agree to disagree and I would leave well enough alone so others can give their input?

Radar · 01-22-2011, 12:21 PM

K I watched the video and I find it interesting to see that they say that there flex guard reduces torque but how is it not affecting the accuracy of the system when the arrow is shot and it pulls the cables out of the way of the arrow, putting side torque on the cams?

Chris · 01-22-2011, 12:36 PM

I guess I'm not the only one looking into this. Here's a post that someone else did regarding this issue.

http://www.3dshoots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34012

alaz · 01-22-2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acesup

but if you set your idler lean while your cable/ flex gaurd is at static....torque and all, the idler is set to that amount of torque....right? So when that cable gaurd moves or flexes and that torque changes, your cam lean changes, and your saying that is somehow MINIMAL movement?

and what facts exactly have you provided me with, so far all it has been is your opinion. It is your opinion that these moving cable gaurd bows tune better and shoot better, but the fact here is that we have yet to see one win any kind of Major tournament, and that FACT is especially interesting considering the current trend towards short axle bows being shot in competition. You made a comment a few posts ago about the Mathews Monster having serious torque related problems, yet Levi Morgan or Chris White don't seem to have any problems when they shoot that bow. Or how about Dave Cousins when he shot the AM35 and Maxxis 35? That's a short bow with a regular cable gaurd, must be a problem right? What about Gary Smith Jr. taking 2nd at Louiville with his Maxxis 35? According to your "facts" these guys are all fools, but for me, I take those results as proof. Thats my "opinion" lol. Take this as another example: Years ago it was "fact" that short axle bows were, unforgiving and inaccurate....not so much anymore.

I do not believe anyone is arguing that these archers aren't good. I do not believe anyone is arguing that you can be accurate with what has become a standard set-up. The point is if a bow can be designed that will shoot a wider range of spine, or a tune straight down the middle, or have your pins line up over the arrow etc why not. Capitalism succeeds b/c people will look for improvement.
The bows you mention...the Monster has a yoke on split to each cam for a reason, the Maxxis moved to an inline roller guard for a reason.
I had a bow with cam lea,/ limb twist, whatever you like to call it and it was harder to tune.

Chris · 01-22-2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alaz

I do not believe anyone is arguing that these archers aren't good. I do not believe anyone is arguing that you can be accurate with what has become a standard set-up. The point is if a bow can be designed that will shoot a wider range of spine, or a tune straight down the middle, or have your pins line up over the arrow etc why not. Capitalism succeeds b/c people will look for improvement.
The bows you mention...the Monster has a yoke on split to each cam for a reason, the Maxxis moved to an inline roller guard for a reason.
I had a bow with cam lea,/ limb twist, whatever you like to call it and it was harder to tune.

ding...ding....ding... winner winner chicken dinner.

acesup · 01-22-2011, 04:19 PM

what happened to Daniel Boon's posts, he had some interesting things to say?

TOOL · 01-22-2011, 07:26 PM

Acesup, I'm not sure I've been able to follow your logic. The cams are only being stressed/pulled one way. By reducing the amount of stress/pull, it will lean less. Less movement throughout the draw cycle. I'm not being argumentative.

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, the TRC idea will also be very helpful in achieving good BH flight. That is were its merits will shine.

Sagittarius · 01-23-2011, 12:25 AM

I still consider the 3 track x cam the best system ever engineered.
It's not perfect but it's the only alternative if one does not want cam lean or cable induced torque.
I have always loaded an arrow nock toward string anyway so that is not an issue for me
I use Dave Barnsdale's spreaders which make it a snap to load any arrow and vane style.
OK Archery is big on the 3 track as 80% of their bows sales in Europe is with the x cam.
Only system I have shot since 2003 and refuse to shoot anything else.
I hunt and shoot spots with the 3 track with equal ease.
Easiest to tune system ever devised.

old buck · 01-23-2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

I should have been born in Missouri, "the show me state". Whenever I hear anything in archery that is all based on theory only, I want someone to prove it to show me! This is how I am with all my testing. All based on facts not theory.

The shorter the axle to axle, the more the cable system is going to try to pull the cam out of alignment. So if I can allow those same cables to flex inward, this means there is less pull on the cable which in turn means there is less lean to the cam or idler.

I don't know how else to explain it. Now if you have another theory as to why the ilder leans, please provide some more details.

Please open this link, I think it will shed some factual light on the issue. The bows have been tested and the results are the product of measurement not opinion.

http://www.3dshoots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34012

I hope this helps.
Thanks
oldbuck

Rattlinman · 01-23-2011, 11:28 AM

I don't think anyone is trying to dispute Chris's knowledge, I've read several great topics of his, but I also have to agree with Ace's opinion that you can OVERTHINK things too much. I think there will never be a "perfectly tunable" bow, every bow out there will have their own little quirks and issues....I think it comes down to the operator and how he tunes and sets the bow up.

For instance, I just spoke to Tim Gillingham seeking advice on an arrow and I brought up "spine". He went into an explanation of how to set up a bow according to the spine of the arow instead of trying to spine the arrow to the bow...and let me tell you this guy is smart as heck and opened my ideas to directions I had'nt even considered.

I guess what I'm saying, is that a bow is mechanical device that will never be "perfect". I think more tuners should try to tune the bow to the shooter and not so much tuning the bow to "perfection".

And I'm sorry, but the Prime cam design is a gimmick to come of with something different, nothing more, nothing less. IMO

MeanV2 · 01-23-2011, 12:17 PM

I agree with RM in the fact that the bow should be tuned to the shooter and not necessarily to prefection in a vacuum. That's rarely the case!

Chris guys in your area are lucky to have someone as knowledgable and picky about a setup as you are!

Unfortunately many of the shops I visit while on the road are sending out some downright pitiful setups. Customers deserve much better!!

It's even amazing how many bows I get in here bought from a competitor to resetup. It makes for a Happy customer for me but it makes me wonder how some guys stay in business.

I'm Sure you see the same!

Dan

Radar · 01-23-2011, 07:39 PM

Why is it no one can answer the question I asked, if that video is supposed to talk about eliminating torque well I think that system is is still adding torque to the shot sequence.

acesup · 01-23-2011, 07:53 PM

hey I've been saying what I think, and some guy on here accused me of starting a fight...

Rattlinman · 01-23-2011, 09:02 PM

Just blow it off Aces....some people can't take a good disagreement without being offended.

Now, me...I got some real thick skin and broad shoulders.....

Slippy · 01-25-2011, 08:25 AM

Do you guys really believe that in 30 years people will pick up today's bows and laugh like we do when we see a bow from the 80s?

I really don't think so.

I think companies need to cool it on the R&D end and keep that money in their pockets so they can keep bow prices reasonable. I think the top of the line bow (naked) should not be more than $600.

Some companies have already proven that they have peaked. i.e. Bowtech and maybe more. One step forward and two steps back isn't progress

CutTheLoop · 01-25-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slippy

Do you guys really believe that in 30 years people will pick up today's bows and laugh like we do when we see a bow from the 80s?

I really don't think so.

I think companies need to cool it on the R&D end and keep that money in their pockets so they can keep bow prices reasonable. I think the top of the line bow (naked) should not be more than $600.

Some companies have already proven that they have peaked. i.e. Bowtech and maybe more. One step forward and two steps back isn't progress

I tend to agree with this sentiment

MeanV2 · 01-25-2011, 08:43 AM

I was actually around way back then. 200fps was considered a Fast bow, and 300 fps was considered unreachable by many.

Who would have thought that you'd see a riser made from hollow carbon tubes? And if your Bow wasn't capable of reaching 300 fps it would be considered slow?

Have you seen a Bow without limbs? It has been done!

and you will probably see production on one in the next few years.

Plus the fact that Fast Bows now are So Quiet, and Vibration free compared to bows of yesteryear that were much slower.

I fully expect more changes to come. There is more to Bow Innovation than adding a dampener here & there. 375 IBO has already been reached in a prototype and maybe more.

Technology will Never stop it may go in a different direction but it will Not stand still!

Dan

Slippy · 01-25-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutTheLoop

I tend to agree with this sentiment

Good, I won't have to kick your butt now.

Chris · 01-25-2011, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slippy

Do you guys really believe that in 30 years people will pick up today's bows and laugh like we do when we see a bow from the 80s?

I really don't think so.

I think companies need to cool it on the R&D end and keep that money in their pockets so they can keep bow prices reasonable. I think the top of the line bow (naked) should not be more than $600.

Some companies have already proven that they have peaked. i.e. Bowtech and maybe more. One step forward and two steps back isn't progress

In 30 years, we will laugh at today's bows for sure. Show me one commonly used mechanical device that has not made dramatic improvements in the last 30 years.

CutTheLoop · 01-25-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slippy

Good, I won't have to kick your butt now.

The bow is too damned high

But, pales in comparison to stabilizers

MeanV2 · 01-25-2011, 03:17 PM

Don't make him Strain his Brain!

Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

In 30 years, we will laugh at today's bows for sure. Show me one commonly used mechanical device that has not made dramatic improvements in the last 30 years.

Slippy · 01-25-2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

In 30 years, we will laugh at today's bows for sure. .....

doubt it. Do we laugh at a 1980 Dodge Charger or do we think that is straight up pimp? Sure, we have fuel injection today and carbureted engines are all but gone, but still....this industry isn't like having shag carpet on a wall. Technology peaks.

MeanV2 · 01-25-2011, 06:29 PM

Since when? You mean if I buy a computer tomorrow I don't have to worry about it being outdated in 5 years? or a year?

Classic Cars are nice but technology has left the Ol Cars behind.

Come' On Slip the wind can't be blowing through your ears that hard

Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slippy

Technology peaks.

Supermag · 01-25-2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slippy

doubt it. Do we laugh at a 1980 Dodge Charger or do we think that is straight up pimp? Sure, we have fuel injection today and carbureted engines are all but gone, but still....this industry isn't like having shag carpet on a wall. Technology peaks.

As long as we can keep the government from jacking up arrow prices and regulating draw curves (yeah that's a stretch of a comparisonn to gas price increases and emissions regulation that destroyed the muscle cars), I think progress will continue to be made in bow making. It might not be progress in raw speed but might be smooth speed or forgiving speed or even accuracy improvements or easier tuning but it's all progress.

Tommy2993 · 01-26-2011, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeanV2

I think it is a problem that gets magnified and worsened the shorter bows get. Is a short A to A bow that much of an advantage? How short will they go? I know myself I will stay with bows in the 33" to 35" range. I actually hunted Turkeys out of a blind with my Sentinel a year or so ago. It was not a problem at all. The difference between a 35" and a 31" A to A bow is 2" on each end. Is that a huge advantage? The longer riser has many pluses, but are over looked in the quest for a shorter hunting bow. Are consumers getting caught up in this marketing blitz that shorter is better? Not Me!!

I do have a problem with companies that introduce technology to the consumer and basically use them as test rats. New tech can be a good thing but Come'On Man get it right before you pit it on the market!!

Dan

Dan we have been test animals for years, stop the denial.. lol