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Old 01-17-2008, 08:29 PM   #81
Paul Morris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg240 View Post
On a seriuos note I have never tryed a fob. How do they stay on the shaft?

I shoot a ripcord rest, axis arrows for hunting, acc's for 3-d.
They are held in place by the nock. On a pass through the FOB and nock pop off (as a unit) and mark the spot.

Your set up looks great. One question.....What is your draw length? and do you use a string loop. The reason for asking is the axis arrows use a very short nock, you will need to check for string pinch at full draw with the FOB (the string making contact with FOB). It should not be a problem if you use a loop, just a good thing to check. If you do see any pinch, all you have to do is spread out your sting loop a bit until the pinch is gone. Then take a bit of serving to make up the difference so your nock still fits the way you like.

The ACC's use a G-nock so no go with FOBs. Unless you shoot 3-60's with the uni-bushing removed and use a standard super nock.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:53 PM   #82
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I have a 30.5 inch draw, the ACC's are G knocks, it would be axis shafts I would try them on. Yes I shoot off a loop.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:59 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg240 View Post
On a seriuos note I have never tryed a fob. How do they stay on the shaft?

I shoot a ripcord rest, axis arrows for hunting, acc's for 3-d.
Just got home from league.... 293 40X with my hunting bow and fixed pins. with a complete miss accidentally tripped the release before I was on target I hate that when that happens....They are great for indoor spot....had alot of lookers.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:59 PM   #84
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Ripcord rest and CX200's..........
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:04 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by rodney482 View Post
Just got home from league.... 293 40X with my hunting bow and fixed pins. with a complete miss accidentally tripped the release before I was on target I hate that when that happens....They are great for indoor spot....had alot of lookers.
Hey Rodney where are you shooting spots at around here?... I am driving all the way to Renselear...
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:28 PM   #86
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Hey Rodney where are you shooting spots at around here?... I am driving all the way to Renselear...
JIMS ARCHERY Lapaz, IN
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:40 PM   #87
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Ill try anything once!
Shooting Beman ICS 400, rope-loop,Trophy taker drop-away for the first time
Im setting up my Mojo and ill try them for 3D if they dont work i wont use them.
If they do ill buy some wont i.
FOB Me i dare ya.
and 2 the guy that sayed he could beat my blazers!! Bring it!
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:01 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUNNYMAN View Post
do you ever READ a POST ????

10 HIGHEST POSTERS

get

3 FOBS

each.........

and you havent shot a bow in how many months???

I had hand surgery and will still out shoot you anyday of the week.......

Save it for the 'smackdown thread....
I changed jobs and can shoot 3 days aweeks now.
Hand surgery? I am not going to comment....
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:04 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Morris View Post
They are held in place by the nock. On a pass through the FOB and nock pop off (as a unit) and mark the spot.

Your set up looks great. One question.....What is your draw length? and do you use a string loop. The reason for asking is the axis arrows use a very short nock, you will need to check for string pinch at full draw with the FOB (the string making contact with FOB). It should not be a problem if you use a loop, just a good thing to check. If you do see any pinch, all you have to do is spread out your sting loop a bit until the pinch is gone. Then take a bit of serving to make up the difference so your nock still fits the way you like.

The ACC's use a G-nock so no go with FOBs. Unless you shoot 3-60's with the uni-bushing removed and use a standard super nock.
What kind of clearance is needed.... center of arrow to drop away? What size arrows will these fit? Gold Tip wise...
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:45 PM   #90
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Quote:
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dkoutdoors,

Thought you may get a kick out of this,

I just talked with a FOB staff shooter who shot a perfect 300 30x (in competition) a few days ago with standard off the shelf arrows.

I think indoor may see some FOB action this year!
Correction....

That was a 300 60X!

You can tell I am an Elk hunter I do not know a hoot about target shooting.

Regards,
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:35 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by two_shoes View Post
What kind of clearance is needed.... center of arrow to drop away? What size arrows will these fit? Gold Tip wise...
For all you guys who are interested...

I would suggest making a clearance tester. Just take a heavy stock paper or card and cut a 1 inch diameter circle. Then punch a whole in the center. Nock up your arrow and hold the rest in the up position. Then slide the paper disk up and down the arrow. When you get to your rest, hold the arrow in the up position, and let the rest fall. Slide the paper tester over the rest and check for clearance at the rest and arrow guide.

I would like to see you have about 3/16 or more clearance. This may require trimming down some arrow holders and/or adjusting the rest to gain more lift. Depending on the rest and riser configuration, you may be able to have the rest raise the arrow enough for the needed clearance and lower the rest elevation (the whole rest) by an equal amount so the nock set stays the same. On some set ups it may require to raise the nock set.

Here is a write up I did for the Ripcord.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=571341

As you all let me know what rest you use I can provide more write ups for a particular rest.

With the TT rest:

The TT test can be tricky to set up with the FOBs. (but it will work great!) Just make sure that the rest is coming up to the full up position at the last part of the draw to ensure a quick drop and the cord should be tied about level with the bottom of the handle/grip (when not drawn back). The goal is to have the least amount of tension on the cord at full draw but having the rest 100% all the way up. Also, I like to rotate the rest bar (the bar that mounts the rest to the riser) slightly down so the rest workings are as level with the riser shelf as possible and the forks should lay as flat as possible. This will also maximize clearance. If you use the rubber arrow guide/holder with the rest, please double check clearance and you may need to trim down. Those arrow guides/holder give us the most troubles

For the most part with ANY drop rest (except the Limb Driver and Whammy), I like to tie the pull cord level with the bottom of the grip/handle. This allows the rest drop faster and also pulls more parallel to the bus cable rather than having the bus cable being pulled to the riser (less effect on cam timing).

Regards,
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:19 PM   #92
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Question

Thanks for the info Paul. Is there an actual airfoil to the FOB? You know... bernulli's and all? Fully semetrical, semi-semetrical, or more of an inside out flat bottom type.....? Is is based on a seligman or NACA or other popular air foil design?
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:23 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by two_shoes View Post
Thanks for the info Paul. Is there an actual airfoil to the FOB? You know... bernulli's and all? Fully semetrical, semi-semetrical, or more of an inside out flat bottom type.....? Is is based on a seligman or NACA or other popular air foil design?
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:29 PM   #94
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Oh, Did I not mention I am an aviation too???
I am considering an Aeronautical Engineering degree.... I work on modified jet engines for a living.... for reals.
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:38 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by two_shoes View Post
Thanks for the info Paul. Is there an actual airfoil to the FOB? You know... bernulli's and all? Fully semetrical, semi-semetrical, or more of an inside out flat bottom type.....? Is is based on a seligman or NACA or other popular air foil design?

Basic concept of the FOB and arrow flight as I see it:

Spin is a good thing! When an arrow is launched all kinds of errors enter the picture. The arrow bends and oscillates (wet noodle), the vanes deform under load to spin up the arrow, and the broadhead is constantly changing the position of the blades causing wind planning in different directions. Yikes! How does anything like that fly straight. The spin of an arrow averages out all the induced errors that the bending of the arrow causes and the changing wind planning of the broadheads blades. In effect, the spin causes the arrow to corkscrew in to itself and not allow the arrow to take off in one particular direction.

The debate is how much spin? It is just a matter of physics that the more spin, the more energy it take to achieve it and the more energy it takes to stop it. Nothing is free and everything is a compromise. My humble thoughts are: Newtonian Physics has been around a while and is very applicable to projectiles. That is what got us to the moon and back. “A body at rest will remain at rest until acted upon by another force: A body in motion will remain in motion”...etc.

By definition: The more the spin the more energy it took to achieve it. Having a 1 1/4 inch blade spinning like a propeller causes funny things to happen. It takes energy to overcome the air resistance (blades pushing the air out of the way to spin) which causes the front of the arrow to have more load. Back to physics, That energy has to come from somewhere (loss of speed) and the same energy has to go somewhere (load on the front of the arrow).

Not enough spin (with a broadhead) and the arrow will just fly off in some random direction with little or no control. As far as the FOB goes, An instant slow roll is what I have found to provide best broadhead flight without causing instability issues and loss of energy (speed) at long range. The spin of a FOB at say 30 yards is about the same as a normal fletch. But the spin-up occurs much faster. The idea is not to create a lot of spin, just to spin things up to speed faster (high torque). It is that first 10 yards out of the bow that is important (in my humble opinion). That is when the corkscrewing takes places and the arrow is still oscillating (wet noodle bending back and forth).

Drag is also a good thing! It keeps the back of the arrow from catching the front. Again, the question is how much? There are obviously a lot of factors that go into this one but generally speaking, the larger the blades on the front of the arrow, the more drag is required to keep the back of the arrow where is belongs. Ideally a stabilizer should produce as little drag as possible when the arrow is flying straight and true and as much as possible the instant the back of the arrow tries to catch the front.

As far as the FOB goes, the drag the FOB produces is funneled through the ring wing and is turned into lift (360 degree lift) The ring wing acts like an airplane wing but in 360 degrees. So in effect, the FOB is trying to pull itself apart. It is basically an air gyro. It does not lift the back of the arrow, it provides as much lift up as it does down and side to side. All we have done is taken the drag component and used it for good. A fletch provides drag but that is it. After that it is thrown away (wasted energy). Not to get to technical, but the air that enters the FOB is captured by the ring wing and is compressed by the fins which causes the air to become more dense (heavier) and more efficient with a higher pressure. At the last 3/4 of the FOB the air is decompressed which creates extra torque. A lot of brain cells where torched thinking of the FOB design and I can not take all of the credit. Some very high powered folks were involved on this hair brained gimmick. HA!

In a nut shell....it's Bernulli's equation that is doing the job. The air pressure on the inside of the FOB is greater than that of the faster traveling air on the outside of the ring wing. This pressure differential causes the circumferential lift.

Just to let you guys know.....Yes I use to help design and build missiles, but I also have been shooting sticks at Elk for 28 years without missing a hunt. So I guess I am a hillbilly engineer.

Regards,
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:27 PM   #96
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Do they increase arrow speed Or decrease compared to Blazers? How much do they weigh and do you always use a wrap?
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:49 PM   #97
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Do they increase arrow speed Or decrease compared to Blazers? How much do they weigh and do you always use a wrap?
I don't know about the weight but they do not glue on you take your nock out of your arrow and put the FOB on your nock and then press it back in your shaft. The wraps are not really necessary but would be a big help finding your arrow after you shoot it through a deer..
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:00 PM   #98
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I don't know about the weight but they do not glue on you take your nock out of your arrow and put the FOB on your nock and then press it back in your shaft. The wraps are not really necessary but would be a big help finding your arrow after you shoot it through a deer..
besides, wraps are kewl......
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:39 PM   #99
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Do they increase arrow speed Or decrease compared to Blazers? How much do they weigh and do you always use a wrap?

Yes and no....

We just had a few Canadian FOB shooters come down for a Javelina hunt. I noticed along with FOBs they were sporting mini blazers on a few arrows. I said "what's up with that". They explained that past 50 yards the FOBs were dropping out. Some folks have found this to be the case. But most find a flatter trajectory. After a few days of pondering this I came to the conclusion based on their set ups. They both used mini-blazers, 280 grain arrows (total weight) shooting 53 pound bows and mechanical heads. A FOB will have more drag than a mini blazer and the 280 grain arrows will not retain KE as well as typical set ups we and many of my customers use.

We have found that in general, the larger the broadhead, heavier the draw weight and more the arrow weight, the FOB will be flatter past about 40-50 yards. 0-50 the FOB will shoot with about with any set up, past that it all depends what you shoot. I asked how the mini's worked on larger heads and heavier bows.....Not so good.

I would say based on the data I have, about 70% of the folks say the FOBs shoot flatter (60-70lb bows, 350 grain+/- arrows), and the rest say they drop a small amount over a target fletch.

No doubt that the FOB will fly flatter than a 4" vane and keep up with a 2" blazer. Now ad a larger broadhead and some cross wind and that is where the FOBs get folks to notice.

Try flying a Zwickey in a 20 mph crosswind with a target fletch, blazer or 4" vane at high speed. Not so good. The FOB will hardly know the wind is there.

With our set ups (typical Elk rig's 70lb, 400+ grain arrows), we notice a substantial flatter trajectory. Same hold true at 70lbs with 100 grain heads (deer set ups). But if you are using mini vanes, light weight tips and low poundage, the FOB most likely will drop out past 50 yards.

We have a target FOB on the drawing board. 3/4 diameter by 1/4 wide. should end up about 13 or so grains. This will be a smoker for sure. We have to cash flow before we can spring for the tooling so do not hold your breath. The hunting market is our focus at this time and the response has been outstanding.

Regards,

forgot about the weight....24 grains
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:02 PM   #100
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Three blazers a 4" wrap and glue weigh 18-19 grains! I may have to shoot one some day.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:17 PM   #101
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Paul,

I would love to try out the FOB's. Until this thread popped up, I hadn't heard of them. I shoot indoor, 3d and of course I hunt. Here is the info you requested on my set up:

CX Maxima 150's arrows for 3d and hunting, Trophy Ridge Drop Zone, D-loop

Anything else you need?
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:15 AM   #102
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as soon as I win a drop-a-way here in a give away , I will try them
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:48 AM   #103
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Paul I still think a 1 1/8" FOB would be the BOMB DIGGITY
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:15 PM   #104
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I just ordered 2 more tubes! neon green and yellow! FOBS rock!
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:19 PM   #105
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How about a three pack???? I would like to try em but hate to buy a whole dozen. Somebody PM me please.
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:31 PM   #106
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I think this thread got lost.... maybe????
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Old 01-24-2008, 04:46 PM   #107
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Thumbs up Free Stuff!

Well now.....

Looks like I got some bites! Lets give out some FREE STUFF!

but one thing first....

The problem with free stuff.......

Over the years I have observed a strange but understandable phenomena,

When someone gets something for free, they perceive little value in it. The chances of it being giving a fair shake are next to nothing if it does not work right out of the box.

As I am sure you are all well aware that the FOB may not be a "right out of the box" product (Yet). That is why I spend so much time with each and every customer. If someone shells out $20 bucks, they will make the effort to give me a call or email me if something is not working.

So far my stats on free stuff are about a 10% call or email back which usually results in an order. But 80% I never hear a thing. So I assume, 80% did not like it, or never tried it.

This compares to about 80% of the folks who buy them provide feedback (both good and bad). Of that 80%, About 8 out of 10 are good out of the box. 10% need a bit of help and we get them working, 5% can not use the FOB (for various reasons) and about 20% I never know what happened.

Just the stats....

I do not mind sending samples every now and then! I just need a promise that you will give me feedback good or bad and allow me the opportunity to get the FOBs working for you. I have a feeling that this forum will be in the 80% feedback group!

enough of that......To the Free Stuff!:


For those interested, promise to provide feedback and allow me to help if needed....

Please send me an email at paul@starrflight.com

Let me know the following:

Name/Address and that you are from 3-Dshoots.com

Your complete set up:

Arrows?
Bow and draw length?
Do you use a string loop?
Specific Rest?
Broadheads?

If you have not seen the web site please check it out first.


You will get the same service as any paying customer would receive. I will get back with you in a day or so and let you know if there is a problem with your set up or any recommendations I may have. The FOBs are not very complicated. You just need to make sure you have the clearance and the rest drops quick. Piece of cake.

Many thanks!!!

I will take the first 10 or so folks and send out the free stuff.

Looking forward to the evaluations and feedback.

Regards,
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Old 01-24-2008, 05:54 PM   #108
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Thats a great offer Paul. I would get in on it but being the great guy that cjsportsman is he mailed me a couple to try out.

My bow setup is

Arrows--------Radial X-Weave stl 300 hunters 30" length
Bow and draw length--Switchback XT 29"dl
Do you use a string loop---YES
Specific Rest----Ripcord
Broadheads---Muzzy 3-blade 125gr

Anything special I should do???? Thanks for the info.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:02 PM   #109
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:54 PM   #110
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Paul

I bought a couple dozen from you back in November. From your above post I don't want you to think I have forgotten about calling you back (I know, I know, I said it would be the new year and it is already and I still haven't called back!).
I think what everyone needs to know here is I called as soon as I got my FOBs because I thought I had the wrong size. I didn't, just got all worried I put them on wrong. Paul was excellent on the phone (he answered himself and where I am in Ontario, it was after business hours). He reassured me I had the right stuff and made me promise I would call him back and tell him how they work. I am going to soon. I just have this love affair with these little fellas (FOB)!
When I cal you back, Paul, I will have another order of at least a couple dozen, I just have to write everything down I need to tell you about FOBs and I have to make up my mind about the color.

When your arrow hits a solid object (cement wall(don't ask why I aimed it there, please)) It seems very strange to walk up to your arrow and find the FOB right against the wall with the shaft sticking out the back of the FOB. I now have two of these 'custom by me' FOBs that fit nicely on the end of a balpoint pen! They draw some interesting remarks from customers for sure.
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Last edited by ace7038; 01-24-2008 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Funny thing I should add
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:54 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace7038 View Post
Paul

I bought a couple dozen from you back in November. From your above post I don't want you to think I have forgotten about calling you back (I know, I know, I said it would be the new year and it is already and I still haven't called back!).
I think what everyone needs to know here is I called as soon as I got my FOBs because I thought I had the wrong size. I didn't, just got all worried I put them on wrong. Paul was excellent on the phone (he answered himself and where I am in Ontario, it was after business hours). He reassured me I had the right stuff and made me promise I would call him back and tell him how they work. I am going to soon. I just have this love affair with these little fellas (FOB)!
When I cal you back, Paul, I will have another order of at least a couple dozen, I just have to write everything down I need to tell you about FOBs and I have to make up my mind about the color.

When your arrow hits a solid object (cement wall(don't ask why I aimed it there, please)) It seems very strange to walk up to your arrow and find the FOB right against the wall with the shaft sticking out the back of the FOB. I now have two of these 'custom by me' FOBs that fit nicely on the end of a balpoint pen! They draw some interesting remarks from customers for sure.
Those are great looking

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Old 01-24-2008, 10:36 PM   #112
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Hey Bowhuntnhoosier, shoot me a PM when you get them, just so I know they got to you. Have fun!
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:53 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by cjsportsman View Post
Hey Bowhuntnhoosier, shoot me a PM when you get them, just so I know they got to you. Have fun!
Definately will do. And thanks again.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:41 PM   #114
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Still plenty of room for samples!
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:39 PM   #115
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Rodney482; Thanks! I was so worried the 'blood red' would not look good with the wraps but it is awesome!

Now if I could only get wraps short enough and narrow enough for the paper mates...NOT!
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:16 PM   #116
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any takers on Paul's offer. Shoot him a PM...
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:13 PM   #117
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Just sent him an email
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:09 PM   #118
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it may take him alittle while to get back to you he said he's backed up..
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Old 02-05-2008, 12:47 AM   #119
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Got my sample on the way
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:30 PM   #120
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E-mail sent, thanks for the great offer!
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