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Old 12-25-2008, 11:37 AM   #1
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Default Is this hunting???

I’ve enjoyed hunting over many years as much as anyone. I think hunting is a great sport and everyone is entitled to participate. However, I’m balking at what I saw last night as a “sport”. Last night, and on previous episodes of Versus, “hunters” arrive at an African hunting camp and are immediately placed in a ground blind 20 yards from an open area that is laced with food (some sort of vegetation). The “hunter” and “guide” sit inside and watch as several Kudos appear. They are surrounded by Kudos and other wildlife. Within an hour two Kudos are shot, by two separate “hunters” each taking their turn inside the blind. The Kudos were within 20 yds, broadside, standing still, and eating the bait. A bit later Wildebeests appear and the same thing again; shot at 20 yd. while broadside and eating. It was like shooting at domestic cattle, certainly not hunting in the normal sense. Yet, the “hunters” are euphoric, with high fives all around as though they have made a great hunting accomplishment.

When hunting is always “under the gun” why add fodder to the argument? This was ridiculous! Why would anyone consider this hunting in the first place? I can just imagine the exaggerated stories that will be told about their great adventure in Africa. This will damage the sport!
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:49 AM   #2
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Default Agree

I feel the same way you do even on channel 18 for me the OUTDOOR CHANNEL some of their hunts are 10yds from the feeder or someother form of bait. And the hunter love it what kind of Bovine Schitolivy BS is this its not hunting I can tell you that.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:49 AM   #3
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The definition of hunting is a fleeting thing subject to many interpretations and personal experiences. We each should decide what we want from the experience without disparaging another’s concept of their experiences.
When I see someone look down their nose at another who might be different in their methods of hunting I first must wonder if they are that intolerant of another’s religion or race as well…
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:52 AM   #4
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I guess I agree. It's like the great never ending debate about high fece hunting, don't see the thrill. But if you don't have the time to get into the sport, & just want to shoot an animal, go for it. I think it is kind of lame myself. Most of the fun for me is to find new land, & harvest an animal in the wild element.
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Old 12-25-2008, 12:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
The definition of hunting is a fleeting thing subject to many interpretations and personal experiences. We each should decide what we want from the experience without disparaging another’s concept of their experiences.
When I see someone look down their nose at another who might be different in their methods of hunting I first must wonder if they are that intolerant of another’s religion or race as well…
The "interpretation" of hunting may indeed vary, but one element that has always been included in the definition of hunting is chase, and fair chase at that.

To suggest that if a person's interpretation, or understanding, of hunting is different than others actually reflects "intolerance of another's religion or race", is so ludicrous as to be beyond comprehension.
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Old 12-25-2008, 12:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulls Eye View Post
The "interpretation" of hunting may indeed vary, but one element that has always been included in the definition of hunting is chase, and fair chase at that.

To suggest that if a person's interpretation, or understanding, of hunting is different than others actually reflects "intolerance of another's religion or race", is so ludicrous as to be beyond comprehension.
Yes, that would indeed be ridiculous; but no more so than to suggest that only your definition is the correct one.
Too someone who grew up in say Texas where nearly everyone “hunts” a feeder and their father and their father’s father and his father “hunted” a feeder that is hunting and who the heck are you to tell them it isn’t?

Oh… and I believe you left out the prime definition of hunting…. To SEEK… nothing about chase there…
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Old 12-25-2008, 01:47 PM   #7
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Default From Wikipedia

Hunting is the practice of pursuing animals for food, recreation, or trade. In modern use, the term refers to regulated and legal hunting, as distinguished from poaching, which is the killing, trapping or capture of animals contrary to law. Hunted animals are referred to as game animals, and are usually large or small mammals, migratory gamebirds, or non-migratory gamebirds.

Hunting can also involve the elimination of vermin as a means of pest control. Hunting advocates claim that hunting can be a necessary[1] component of modern wildlife management, for example to help maintain a population of healthy animals within an environment's ecological carrying capacity when natural checks such as predators are absent.[2] In the United States, wildlife managers are frequently part of hunting regulatory and licensing bodies, where they help to set rules on the number, manner and conditions in which game may be hunted.

The pursuit, capture and release, or capture for food of fish is called fishing, which is not commonly categorized as a kind of hunting. Trapping is also usually considered a separate activity. Neither is it considered hunting to pursue animals without intent to kill them, as in wildlife photography or birdwatching. The practice of hunting for plants or mushrooms is a colloquial term for gathering.

The American Fair Chase Tradition

En uheldig bjørnejakt (An Unfortunate Bear Hunt) by Theodor Kittelsen The principles of the Fair Chase[14] have been a part of the American hunting tradition for over 100 years. The role of the hunter-conservationist, popularized by Theodore Roosevelt, has been central to the development of the modern Fair Chase tradition

I cherry picked this from Wikapedia. Draw your own conclusions. I like the 'Fair Chase' scenario. But, hunting can be what you want it to be as long as it is within the laws of your state/country.

Personally I don't give a rat's butt about sitting in a blind and have animals all around in what's basically a giant pen. I get much more personal satisfaction out of a challenge, and the preparations and effort that go along with it. That philosophy has made me a better person over my lifetime.

I would not say that the stuff you see on TV is not hunting though. It's what you want to do, how you do it, how much effort you put into it, the time you have to do it and what kind of money you are willing to spend to get a kill.

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Old 12-25-2008, 02:50 PM   #8
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Theodore Roosevelt "Credo of Fair Chase" 1893

"The term 'Fair Chase' shall not be held to include killing bear, wolf, or cougar in traps, nor 'fire hunting,' nor 'crusting' moose, elk or deer in deep snow, nor killing game from a boat while it is swimming in the water, nor killing deer by any other method than fair stalking or still hunting."

This was the original doctrine of fair chase, I wonder how treestands got in there...
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Old 12-25-2008, 04:38 PM   #9
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What persons that shoot animals from a blind adjacent to a bait pile that has been feeding animals everyday for a considerable time are doing is exactly that, shooting animals, not hunting. When I lived at home on our bush farm, we would harvest steers by shooting the one that we wanted when it came to feed on hay. Don't see any difference here, it's shooting, not hunting, period.
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:08 PM   #10
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Default Yes it is hunting

Just for your information all or most of Africa is high fenced. Thousands of acres and for good reasons. If not the animals would be pouched.

I will go to Africa one day and hunt with my bow just like this. Its dont by thousands of hunters ever year.

In my state I can sit in front of a feeder and harvest game (Legally). Many seem to think Im not a hunter.

Yes there a abundance of game to shoot and harvest. When did this become a problem? Peta and many dont care how you hunt. They want it stopped and Bowhunters are there number one target. Get this they dont care how you hunt. They want it stopped.
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:10 PM   #11
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Default Thanks Big Lew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lew View Post
What persons that shoot animals from a blind adjacent to a bait pile that has been feeding animals everyday for a considerable time are doing is exactly that, shooting animals, not hunting. When I lived at home on our bush farm, we would harvest steers by shooting the one that we wanted when it came to feed on hay. Don't see any difference here, it's shooting, not hunting, period.

Ill be putting an eleven year old on a feeder tommorrow to shoot his first deer. Get this he wont care and will have the thrill of his life. Its legal and 100% fair in my state. Now please inform how you hunt so I can bash it to pieces. Try me and see if I cant find plenty that think the way you hunt is terriable.
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:14 PM   #12
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Default Another ethics thread

No scents
No compound bows
No GPS
No treestands
No water holes.
No acorn trees
No food plots
No game cameras
No deer blinds
No private managed deer herds
Everyone hunt public lands
No paying for leases
No guides
Heck lets all hunt with are bare hands in loin cloths.
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:15 PM   #13
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Default Been done for more years than you have been alive here and Africa

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Originally Posted by Bulls Eye View Post
I’ve enjoyed hunting over many years as much as anyone. I think hunting is a great sport and everyone is entitled to participate. However, I’m balking at what I saw last night as a “sport”. Last night, and on previous episodes of Versus, “hunters” arrive at an African hunting camp and are immediately placed in a ground blind 20 yards from an open area that is laced with food (some sort of vegetation). The “hunter” and “guide” sit inside and watch as several Kudos appear. They are surrounded by Kudos and other wildlife. Within an hour two Kudos are shot, by two separate “hunters” each taking their turn inside the blind. The Kudos were within 20 yds, broadside, standing still, and eating the bait. A bit later Wildebeests appear and the same thing again; shot at 20 yd. while broadside and eating. It was like shooting at domestic cattle, certainly not hunting in the normal sense. Yet, the “hunters” are euphoric, with high fives all around as though they have made a great hunting accomplishment.

When hunting is always “under the gun” why add fodder to the argument? This was ridiculous! Why would anyone consider this hunting in the first place? I can just imagine the exaggerated stories that will be told about their great adventure in Africa. This will damage the sport!
Hasnt stopped hunting yet. Just because its not how you do it.
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Old 12-25-2008, 06:49 PM   #14
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Default Daniel Boone

Sorry I hit a sore spot with you Daniel, normally we argree with most mutually answered posts. Having said that, I still stick with my comments, and they are not meant to say that people that shoot animals over bait shouldn't do so. It is illegal in my province. On another site, a bowhunter from Spokane tells of his experience while hunting over a grain pile. He was hunting in a wilderness area and using bait to attract wild deer close enough to be within bow range. I say that the original situation regarding africa baiting is not the same, it's similiar to me shooting our steers in our farm yard.
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Old 12-25-2008, 07:02 PM   #15
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im not one for feeders, or "controld enviroment hunting", but the only way to make it fair and true is to arm the animals, till then EAT ON!!!!
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Old 12-25-2008, 09:29 PM   #16
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Default Your entitled

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Originally Posted by Big Lew View Post
Sorry I hit a sore spot with you Daniel, normally we argree with most mutually answered posts. Having said that, I still stick with my comments, and they are not meant to say that people that shoot animals over bait shouldn't do so. It is illegal in my province. On another site, a bowhunter from Spokane tells of his experience while hunting over a grain pile. He was hunting in a wilderness area and using bait to attract wild deer close enough to be within bow range. I say that the original situation regarding africa baiting is not the same, it's similiar to me shooting our steers in our farm yard.
But I stand by what many say. They dont like how you hunt. Each hunter chooses what hunting is to him. You must make that call. I use to think exactly like you. Funny how my views of years studying Peta have changed.
They hate you and ever hunter regardless, they dont play fair.
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:17 AM   #17
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If it's legal I could care less how someone else hunts. Hunt in whatever way brings you satisfaction.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:16 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulls Eye View Post
I’ve enjoyed hunting over many years as much as anyone. I think hunting is a great sport and everyone is entitled to participate. However, I’m balking at what I saw last night as a “sport”. Last night, and on previous episodes of Versus, “hunters” arrive at an African hunting camp and are immediately placed in a ground blind 20 yards from an open area that is laced with food (some sort of vegetation). The “hunter” and “guide” sit inside and watch as several Kudos appear. They are surrounded by Kudos and other wildlife. Within an hour two Kudos are shot, by two separate “hunters” each taking their turn inside the blind. The Kudos were within 20 yds, broadside, standing still, and eating the bait. A bit later Wildebeests appear and the same thing again; shot at 20 yd. while broadside and eating. It was like shooting at domestic cattle, certainly not hunting in the normal sense. Yet, the “hunters” are euphoric, with high fives all around as though they have made a great hunting accomplishment.

When hunting is always “under the gun” why add fodder to the argument? This was ridiculous! Why would anyone consider this hunting in the first place? I can just imagine the exaggerated stories that will be told about their great adventure in Africa. This will damage the sport!

This person posted this same thread on PSE forums and it was shot down hard over their,you might not like how other people hunt but if it's legal then thts's all that matters.
Like stated,hunters have our own problems fighting the anti's we dont need to add fuel to their fire....
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:46 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfan99 View Post
But if you don't have the time to get into the sport, & just want to shoot an animal...
Come on over to my neighborhood!!!

We have plenty of abandoned dogs that have been dropped in our neighborhood that have gone or are going feral. It's gotten so bad the local Animal Control Officer has has told me: "Look You are sworn L.E., you bow hunt, and there is 3 acres of woods behind that pond over yonder, deal with it yourself... Its more humane that the week of captivity and the shot we give them, IF we can catch them.)
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:51 AM   #20
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You are beginning to see alot more of this kinda of thing. I saw a candian whitetail hunt where the deer were coming into opened bales of hay that was left for them. I have seen numerous shows from texas where they are shooting over bait laid down. I personally dont feel this is hunting...UNLESS it is used to get rid of nusiance animals like hogs and pigs. These animals are over running alot of areas in many states now.
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:56 AM   #21
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Guess I really blew this one. Didn't think this through before I posted. Got caught up in the emotion of the show I watched and didn't consider I'd be foddering the fodder. My apologies to those who hunt legally.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:01 AM   #22
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Default ???

questions to those of you against baiting. Do you hunt over any natural sources that deer feed on regularly?? Like acorns and grasses. Do you setup on trails to feeding area's? If so you would be taking a marked advantage over just picking any tree for a stand. Isn't that the reason most of you have problems with baiting, because it makes it easier???? I mean if you want to make things harder on yourself dump all the recent gear. Grab your long bow and get to it. Stalking that this.

JMO but hunting is hard enough as it is. I can use all the help I can get.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:35 AM   #23
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im not for it or against it. if ur state says you can do it by all means take advantage of it we all know huntings hard enough .... im not sayin i would i like the satisfaction of catching deer on their natural movements ...... everyones got their own opinion
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:51 AM   #24
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Yes, I only spot and stalk, but I would hunt from a stand over an animal trail, and I would hunt by a corn field etc. if that's the only area left to me, and if it was legal, yes, then I would hunt over bait under similiar curcumstances as the hunter from Spokane. I was simply answering "Bulls Eye's" thread when I stated that the "african" situation was "shooting", not "hunting", in my opinion. Further, if all other options were taken from me, I would "shoot" an animal in order to get venison.
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:35 AM   #25
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I wouldnt get to worked up about how others respond to your posts in the Buwhunting section.....

opinions are like buttholes and everyone has one.....

and everyone thinks there way is the right way.....



here is my thought.....

if within the law....then by all means, hunt how you like....

these are the little things in life and take to much of our precious time here, to worry about....

to each there own.....

next time just turn the channel......
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUNNYMAN View Post
I wouldnt get to worked up about how others respond to your posts in the Buwhunting section.....

opinions are like buttholes and everyone has one.....

and everyone thinks there way is the right way.....



here is my thought.....

if within the law....then by all means, hunt how you like....

these are the little things in life and take to much of our precious time here, to worry about....

to each there own.....

next time just turn the channel......

Bunny,

Its a forum. We came here to discuss things. Your are right about not getting worked up about things. The only problem I have with forums is the inability to determine the inflection or tone of the post. Sometimes I can sometimes I can't. Without inflection people can and will take things the wrong way from time to time.
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:22 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Bunny,

Its a forum. We came here to discuss things. Your are right about not getting worked up about things. The only problem I have with forums is the inability to determine the inflection or tone of the post. Sometimes I can sometimes I can't. Without inflection people can and will take things the wrong way from time to time.
Looney Toon,

I agree, but WAY too often in BOWHUNTING discussions, people try to force their beliefs and value's off on you......and make you feel that there way is the only way....

go to ANY boards Bowhunting section and read the posts....no one can EVER be happy for another person.....

jelousy in its ugliest form.....making one feel bad for there values
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUNNYMAN View Post
Looney Toon,

I agree, but WAY too often in BOWHUNTING discussions, people try to force their beliefs and value's off on you......and make you feel that there way is the only way....

go to ANY boards Bowhunting section and read the posts....no one can EVER be happy for another person.....

jelousy in its ugliest form.....making one feel bad for there values
Though its off the subject, I feel theres alot of commerotery here at this forum, and think you all are swell
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:53 PM   #29
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Most all hunts in African hunts are high fence.....to each their own i guess.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbdcougar View Post
If it's legal I could care less how someone else hunts. Hunt in whatever way brings you satisfaction.
+1 WORD!!!!

If it is within the law, HUNT how you like.
I like the personal challenge of being out and about. If it were legal to hunt over a feeder here, I might, but then again, I have enjoyed my time in the woods.
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Eph. 2:8-10

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Old 12-26-2008, 08:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bulls Eye View Post
I’ve enjoyed hunting over many years as much as anyone. I think hunting is a great sport and everyone is entitled to participate. However, I’m balking at what I saw last night as a “sport”. Last night, and on previous episodes of Versus, “hunters” arrive at an African hunting camp and are immediately placed in a ground blind 20 yards from an open area that is laced with food (some sort of vegetation). The “hunter” and “guide” sit inside and watch as several Kudos appear. They are surrounded by Kudos and other wildlife. Within an hour two Kudos are shot, by two separate “hunters” each taking their turn inside the blind. The Kudos were within 20 yds, broadside, standing still, and eating the bait. A bit later Wildebeests appear and the same thing again; shot at 20 yd. while broadside and eating. It was like shooting at domestic cattle, certainly not hunting in the normal sense. Yet, the “hunters” are euphoric, with high fives all around as though they have made a great hunting accomplishment.

When hunting is always “under the gun” why add fodder to the argument? This was ridiculous! Why would anyone consider this hunting in the first place? I can just imagine the exaggerated stories that will be told about their great adventure in Africa. This will damage the sport!
And starting a thread like this, that get's people fighting is helping the sport? Threads like this are one reason I don't go to AT anymore. No one can respect someone else's opinion and agree to disagree.
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:17 PM   #32
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And starting a thread like this, that get's people fighting is helping the sport? Threads like this are one reason I don't go to AT anymore. No one can respect someone else's opinion and agree to disagree.
Your the only one with a mad sign. Disscusion is going well. No one offended by his comment. We agree to dissagree here. Wheres the fight?
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:16 PM   #33
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I don't think there is any clear answer on this. "Hunting" means differant things to differant people and also the reason you are there.You get out of hunting what you put into it. Getting past that I feel it comes down to is it the matching of wits (are you smarter than a fifth grader) vs the satisfaction of the kill. I also use the catch and release theory on various species of fishes.
Myself, I prefer the hunt portion itself. And as I get older the harvest part of the hunt becomes less important. Over the years I have passed on many a deer and to this day I would rather have a young doe than a big antlered buck. i also don't believe in the "if it's brown it's down" type of hunting neither.
But that's just me. I neither condemn nor condone what other people do as long as it's legal. There are those that are out there to enjoy the "chase, those that main purpose is to fill the freezer and those that follow deer managemnet and finally those that are strictly for bragging rights and only go after trophy deer. To each their own.
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:47 PM   #34
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Ill be putting an eleven year old on a feeder tommorrow to shoot his first deer. Get this he wont care and will have the thrill of his life. Its legal and 100% fair in my state. Now please inform how you hunt so I can bash it to pieces. Try me and see if I cant find plenty that think the way you hunt is terriable.
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I noticed you did not say HUNT his first deer. Must have been a slip of the tongue.
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:25 AM   #35
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You posted this on Bowcountry too. What's your motive...cause over there you acted like you didn't realize it would cause such a fuss...yet over here you're pushing you're "beliefs" a bit more?

Nothing good can come from splitting the hunting community.
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:25 AM   #36
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No need for anyone to take this personal, unless you are trying to justify something.

Interesting topic!!!

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Old 12-27-2008, 11:52 AM   #37
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I noticed you did not say HUNT his first deer. Must have been a slip of the tongue.
I garantee he had a blast and yes it was a hunt. Didnt think I had to say it was a hunt to anyone.
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:31 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulls Eye View Post
I’ve enjoyed hunting over many years as much as anyone. I think hunting is a great sport and everyone is entitled to participate. However, I’m balking at what I saw last night as a “sport”. Last night, and on previous episodes of Versus, “hunters” arrive at an African hunting camp and are immediately placed in a ground blind 20 yards from an open area that is laced with food (some sort of vegetation). The “hunter” and “guide” sit inside and watch as several Kudos appear. They are surrounded by Kudos and other wildlife. Within an hour two Kudos are shot, by two separate “hunters” each taking their turn inside the blind. The Kudos were within 20 yds, broadside, standing still, and eating the bait. A bit later Wildebeests appear and the same thing again; shot at 20 yd. while broadside and eating. It was like shooting at domestic cattle, certainly not hunting in the normal sense. Yet, the “hunters” are euphoric, with high fives all around as though they have made a great hunting accomplishment.

When hunting is always “under the gun” why add fodder to the argument? This was ridiculous! Why would anyone consider this hunting in the first place? I can just imagine the exaggerated stories that will be told about their great adventure in Africa. This will damage the sport!
I don't think they will be exagerating too much since it was on an episode of Versus for everyone to see.
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Old 12-27-2008, 05:08 PM   #39
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Man,

The thing I'm concerned about iis the folks out there that hate hunters, period....

In my opinion we need to hang close and get our numbers higher before the morons in Washington and state governments give us the shaft.

The sad part is that there are a few idiots out there that do stupid stuff in the field (and out of the field) that give us a bad name. We need to weed them out... If we want to keep doing what we love...

Ron
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Old 12-27-2008, 07:13 PM   #40
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HMM how bout those JETS, This is one of those deals where we will argue amongst ourselves inside while the PETA treehuggers attack us from the outside and the whole system will colapse on our heads while we argue about it. No group of hunters will ever agree on methods. I know bowhunters who snub rifle hunters, and some snub tree stands and such. We dont know the whole deal, It could have been a canned hunt or animal was in a ten acre fence. Or it could have been timing. I saw a deer shot on the outdoor channel while he had his head poked in the feeder, I didnt agree. Some folks do. I dont think we should sit around and beat each other up over it.
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