Commander

Discussion in 'General Archery Forum' started by Sammy PSU, Apr 16, 2007.

  1. Sammy PSU

    Sammy PSU Member

    43
    0
    0
    I have a Commander on order and I've been reading a lot about cam lean, yadda yadda and this and that. I only take it with a grain of salt, but there's enough to warrant some concern. I'm a lefty, so the wait will continue; however, are any of you guys shooting one right now and are you having any of these problems?? :noidea:
     
  2. BUNNYMAN

    BUNNYMAN I pray for you!

    29,903
    12
    0
    by twising and untwisting your cables shouldnt you be able to fix and cam lean issues???

    I would think that is all part of tunning all though I dont have a bowtech so I am not real familier w/them....:noidea:

    I think alot of these issues are started by bowtech non-fanboys.....haters if you will......
     

  3. Sammy PSU

    Sammy PSU Member

    43
    0
    0
    Well I guess I'll be the one giving some first hand knowledge.......I just found out it's shipping this week :biggrin1: :rockon:

    I'm pumped now. I guess I was just having some buyer's second guessing, but I think I'm just going to worry about it and enjoy my new toy.
     
  4. tek

    tek Senior Member

    220
    0
    0
    Good luck with your new Commander. I wouldnt worry about any problems with your new bow. IMO you can only believe about 10% of the stuff you read anyways :biggrin1:
     
  5. BUNNYMAN

    BUNNYMAN I pray for you!

    29,903
    12
    0
    and if Dredly wrote it, you can only beleive about 1% of it.....:biggrin1:
     
  6. Greg / MO

    Greg / MO Member

    83
    0
    0
    The 10% comment is pretty close to the truth... Here's a post I grabbed off a board I help moderate on which Len in Maryland wrote; for those who may not know Len, he's widely regarded on the various forums as one of the most technically proficient shop owners and techs out there...


    "Anyway, there is a thread now running titled "Who wins bow of the year?" There are referrals and pictures taken from another forum that does have an abundance of 'experts'. I'm afraid, however, that many of these experts have an agenda against BowTech and most of them are seeing an optical illusion.

    Now keep in mind that I'm NOT saying that there can't be some problems with this new technology/design. Quite the contrary, I'm keeping my eyes open and I'm doing some extensive testing and shooting.

    What I've found about the serving on the yoke of the cables is that the serving gets chafed by some sharp edges if you remove/replace them often. This is complicated if you don't have a proper bow press and utilize the limb bolts to tear down the bow. When you let the limb bolts down all the way, there is still quite a bit of pressure to overcome. It's this pressure on a squared off machined part that causes the wear. Depending on the manufacturer of the string/cables, it may be more or less. The pictures I saw appeared to be aftermarket. Finally, on that other forum there are those who constantly 'play' with their toys and don't have the proper tools to do so. Maybe BT made a slight mistake by providing a 'tear down' method like they did.

    Now to the cam lean. I've shown most of my customers, and some of the member of the 'other' forum who come into my shop, how the cam lean issue can very easily be an optical illusion. Most who look at this design cannot, of course, be familiar with it. I have checked every Guardian and Commander that has come through my shop at static and full draw. The worst cam lean I've seen is much better than anything else on the market. To say that there is none would be rediculous, but it is absolutely minimal in the approximately 30+ bows I've examined.

    I've seen variances on other bows up to +/- 1/2". I am, of course, talking about bows with a cable guard only. On the Guardian design the most severe I've seen is about +/- 1/8". The picture posted on the other thread does NOT show the whole bow. I have shown people how that picture can be obtained in several ways. Or should I say 'doctored'?

    If you use a machine I designed, pull the bow to full draw, and step back and look at the string coming off the cams, it appears to have cam lean. If you eyeball the string up with the center shot, the apparent lean disappears. If you put a laser (Spot Hogg) on the cams, the laser lights up exactly with the opposite cam. With all due respect, lasers don't lie, but eyesight can mislead.

    Without going into extensive rhetoric, I hope I've explained my findings satisfactorily."
     
  7. hoagie27

    hoagie27 Junior Member

    32
    0
    0
    I believe that Len knows what he is talking about. I had a problem with my constitution not rolling over properly and no of the pro shops in my area could do anything for it. I took it up to Len on the advise from a friend and in 10 minutes had it rolling over correctly. I spent a hour talking with him and man is so humble that is not believable. He's always trying to help out with anybody's problems and most of the time cures said problem. As long as he is open I will always take my equipment to him
     
  8. dzingale

    dzingale Senior Member

    338
    0
    0
    I have been shooting my Commander for about A month and have absolutely no cam lean at all. Maybe I am just lucky but others in the shop don't have any lean either. You wont be sorry for the wait.
    Danny
     
  9. tek

    tek Senior Member

    220
    0
    0
    Greg,
    I was at one of Len's seminars at an ATA show. The man knows his stuff no doubt. I only wish I knew half of what that guy knows.

    About the 10%.... I was kinda kidding and kinda not. There is some really good info on these boards, ya just got to wade though the other 90% to find it :biggrin1:
     
  10. Greg / MO

    Greg / MO Member

    83
    0
    0
    Tek,

    Yeah, I just read where Len is going to be holding a special seminar at Macro Tech and is limiting the attendance to 15... He's going to hit on his favorite three points: "tune the archer, tune the bow, and tune the arrow"... He's even going to have videocameras set up so he and the student can tinker with form and they can go back and watch it later... I think it's only going to cost around $200... Man, I wish Maryland wasn't so far away!

    As far as the 10% comment... Trust me, I'm sort of a "board veteran" even though I've just made a few posts in here so far... I know EXACTLY what you mean! :biggrin1:
     
  11. 'SIN'ERGY

    'SIN'ERGY Senior Member

    1,143
    2
    0
    Does cam lean really matter? My Synergy has a good amount of lean but I have no shooting issues with it. I thought that Binary cams always have some lean.
     
  12. BUNNYMAN

    BUNNYMAN I pray for you!

    29,903
    12
    0
    i thought Binary cams were supposed to eleminate cam lean???
     
  13. 'SIN'ERGY

    'SIN'ERGY Senior Member

    1,143
    2
    0
    If they are then I got major issues. I think u may have that backwards.:noidea:
     
  14. BUNNYMAN

    BUNNYMAN I pray for you!

    29,903
    12
    0
    i was wrong once.......:biggrin1:
     
  15. 'SIN'ERGY

    'SIN'ERGY Senior Member

    1,143
    2
    0
    I'm not saying that you are but for my sake I hope you are.:pray: :pray:
     
  16. BUNNYMAN

    BUNNYMAN I pray for you!

    29,903
    12
    0
    I was still wrong once....maybe this will be twice....:noidea:
     
  17. Greg / MO

    Greg / MO Member

    83
    0
    0
    No, the purpose of binary cams is not to eliminate lean, though certainly no one wants to see too much displayed on his personal bow. The strength of the binary is that the ends of the cable are tied to the opposite cam and not anchored to the limb tips -- on both tips in the case of dual cams, or on one of the tips in the case of a hybrid or cam and a half.

    With the cable tied into the opposing cam, any imbalances in the system -- string stretch, etc. -- gets "worked out" and the system remains in essence in time.

    Any bow with a cable guard is going to be sucsceptible to some lean, as the guard is applying sideways pressure to keep the cables out of the arrow's way... it can be more noticeable on the regular binaries (referring to bows minus the Guardian and Commander) because of the lack of a split harness and the inability to twist up one side or the other to correct for the lean.

    Now the Center Track design on the new Bowtechs (Guardian and Commander) WERE designed to eliminate lean by placing the take-up and power side on opposite sides of each other... perhaps that was what you were thinking of.

    Having said all that... I think the question "Does it matter?" posted up above is actually a fairly good one. Almost every time I've seen a legitimate poster bring up the issue of cam lean, I've usually asked them how the bow was tuning for them... To a man, almost every one of them replied "It shoots bullet holes!" To that end, I'd agree... I don't think some lean matters a bit. If there's severe enough lean that the cams or cables touch something, that's a different ballgame, but I've seen very few of those cases.
     
  18. BUNNYMAN

    BUNNYMAN I pray for you!

    29,903
    12
    0
    fare enough.....and spoken like a person who knows the truth....
     
  19. pdq 5oh

    pdq 5oh Member

    95
    0
    0
    My Commander is shooting great. I couldn't tell you how it shoots through paper but, I can tell you how it shoots groups........I don't once tuned.......too hard on arrows. :doh: Cam lean is problematic when excessive. A small amount isn't a problem on the bows I've seen and set up. There's no lean my on Commander or Allegiance. My son's Equalizer also has none.
     
  20. BowhuntnHoosier

    BowhuntnHoosier Bisquit.......

    13,887
    15
    0
    Just one question though....................................how do you shoot such an ugly bow.:biggrin1: :peace: J/K