String travel and brace height?

Discussion in 'General Archery Forum' started by Chris, Jul 6, 2008.

  1. Chris

    Chris Administrator Staff Member

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    String travel, brace height and the STS more forgiving?

    Ok, here's a question for you. We all know or have been told that higher brace height bows are more forgiving. Which translates into "easier to shoot accurately".

    Bows of yesterday or yesteryear didn't have STS or string stoppers. The string was allowed to travel forward until there was sufficient forward travel to pull the arrow off the string.

    Today, we have bows with STS or string stoppers on them. Wouldn't it be logical that todays short(er) brace height bows may infact allow the arrow to leave the string sooner than a older style, higher brace height bow without a string stopper?

    If this is true, then at what point are the two bows equal? I know for a fact that my 08 commander allows the string to come all the way up to where the cables are before the arrow leaves the string. I have the high speed video to prove it. So here we have an 8"+ brace height bow where the arrows leaves the string at what, maybe 7" or just under?

    Now compare this to a 7.25" brace height bow with a string stopper. High speed video shows the arrow leaves the string when the string hits the stopper at full brace height. Wouldn't this be better and more forgiving?

    Lets compare the same bow, one with STS and one without. Say the bow has 7.25" brace height. The bow with the STS would leave at 7.25" approximately. The bow without would be significantly less. I don't know sure but is it an inch less or more than an inch less?

    This is just some random thoughts I had and was wondering if anyone else has thought of this. I'm not saying the newer bows with stoppers are more forgiving, I'm just asking some questions.:D

    I got this picture from the net. No, this is not me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2008
  2. brokenarrow

    brokenarrow Evil Genius

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    It's a valid arguement.
    I had never thought about it before, but you may be onto something there...:D
     

  3. BUNNYMAN

    BUNNYMAN I pray for you!

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    I have been telling guys at the shop this for a while.........

    I think an STS, does so many good things, that there IS NO REASON NOT to put one on.......
     
  4. pred8er

    pred8er He who eats fuzzy animals

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    I've thought about it (kind of). I think this is why we're seeing more bows coming out with shorter brace heights that have an STS on them. The shorter brace height is going to give more speed, the STS will in effect make a 6" brace height bow the same as a 7" brace height bow without an STS. Wrong? :noidea:
     
  5. MoSkeeter0311

    MoSkeeter0311 New Member

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    Also I would be curious if the arrow leaves the string faster with an STS than with a natural shot. It seems to me that the arrow would pick up a little speed when it is "snapped" off the string with the STS as opposed to a naural release off the string. Once the string passes the normal brace height, in my opinion, the string would start slowing down due to the pull of the limbs. I think the maximum spped of the arrow would be maximum at the exact set brace height. Once the string is past it's set brace height it would be losing forward inertia. in order to reverse itself back to it's original position.

    Also I prefer a shorter brace height due to my T-Rex arms. A 6" brace height gives me a 21 1/2" power stroke with my 27.5" DL as opposed to a 20 1/2 with a 7".
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2008
  6. poorshot

    poorshot Senior Member

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    STS Forgiving

    I was always told that a string stopper that is near the center of the bow will make the bow easier to shoot. Nocks will release off the string at the same part of the cycle every time. It will also not be affected by slight differences in nock gaps.
     
  7. dbdcougar

    dbdcougar He Who Drops His Bow Arm

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    Makes sense to me.:noidea:
     
  8. Ronhop

    Ronhop RIP

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    There has been a train of thought for a long time that the longer the arrow is nocked on the string the less forgiving the bow is going to be.

    An STS shortens the length of time the arrow is nocked on the string.

    That's one of the reasons why modern "short" brace height bows like the 82nd Airborne is so shootable.

    Ron
     
  9. Mathews Man

    Mathews Man Foam Killer

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    I have another Pic of a Mathews past BH.
     
  10. Chris

    Chris Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't have that bow here to measure but that would effectively be about a 5" brace height or less at the point where the arrow leaves the string.
     
  11. Ronhop

    Ronhop RIP

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    That's a real good pic.

    Seems like it might even be a bit less than 5". That string is really out there...

    Ron
     
  12. Mathews Man

    Mathews Man Foam Killer

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    A Friend of mine I shoot spots with this winter (he shot a switch back) noticed his Kisser button getting chewed up, on night we realized it was hitting the rollers. Well he added a STS that night and hasnt had a problem since. Moral of story:STS does work!
     
  13. Brown Hornet

    Brown Hornet New Member

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    If it were infact better and more forgiving.....the guys and gals that shoot target archery for a LIVING or at least part of their living would be using them:eyebrows:

    But I like your train of thought....:peace:
     
  14. Brown Hornet

    Brown Hornet New Member

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    Not 100% true....the womans FITA record is set with a 33-36" bow with sub 7" bow that had no stopper on it.

    A bow isn't more accurate OR forgiving with a stopper....of any kind.

    Do some research and you will discover that it has been stated by more then one company and VERY High level archers that they can actually hurt your accuracy and consistency.:doh:

    and I am not making that up....

    the next question is going to of course be....then why do companies put them on there then....answer....because they aren't stupid...people want them...but they ALL are also removable:D
     
  15. Ronhop

    Ronhop RIP

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    Professional and top amateur archers don't need any help. Average and above average archers can use some help with small flaws in form, which all of us have at our 'level'. Mathews has had their 'stoppers' on their bows for years. Not the same as an STS but more or less an early vision of what ended up being 'not a bad thing'.... Which is why all of their bows have them. Look at how much tournament money Mathews shooters have won compared to other bow companies without any 'stoppers'... Again, they are NOT using an STS type of stopper but their devices are meant to perform the same task...

    Your point with the women's FITA record is cool and I'm sure it's correct.

    Companies that claim that 'stoppers' do not help are simply sweeping over their own lack of offering the option from the factory, which is why companies make them and have very satified customers. And there is still the train of thought that the quicker the arrow leaves the string the more forgiving the bow is. There are articles regularly written about that topic and if you really give it some thought it does make a ton of sense.

    FITA rules and records really don't have anything to do with folks like us. If you want to run out and shoot world class FITA with the equipment they use then great. Good luck being competitive. Folks like you and I do not have the form, experience, practice time, financial support, sponsorship support and dedicaton to shoot without some help.

    And your right, you can remove them. My 82nd shoots frozen ropes out to 40 yards in a 3" group with the 'stopper' on there so I will not be removing it anytome soon....

    Can you tell us how an STS type of device hurts our shooting ?

    I could see that if the bumper got really roughed up it may cause a change in the travel of the string. I'd like to see a slo-mo of that happening. That would be really interesting to see.

    I'm not slamming your response at all, I just think there is a much bigger picture on the topic and it probably need more discussion and experience from people who use them and people who don't.

    Ron
     
  16. red44

    red44 Senior Member

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    I'm one that has used them, but I don't have them on at this time. IMO they did'nt quiet the bows down as well as catwhiskers. I don't see where they would help accuracy. I would think taking away from the forward stroke would slow the bow up. Not to mention, it's changing the way the arrow comes of the string. The balance of the string is not the same. I have no way to really validate my opinions, I just can't wrap my head around why they would help with accuracy.
    Think about where the nockpoint is in relation to the ATA, just above center, (shelf being roughly center). When an STS type device is thrown on below the grip, the arrow is'nt coming off any where near center of the string's arc.
    Can it be tuned out? Does it really make any difference at all? :noidea:
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2008
  17. MoSkeeter0311

    MoSkeeter0311 New Member

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    I would think this would be just the opposite. Once the string passes midpoint (Brace height) it would start slowing up as the bow is trying to return it to it's natural position.(which is the brace heighth at rest). Once the string is past the vertical (brace height) position, the physical characteristics of the limbs start reversing the forward drive of the string to bring it back to neutral. As for as coming off the string, I would think that snapping off at the optimal speed of the string would increase arrow speed much like snapping your wrist when you throw a ball. I shoot better with the STS on my bow. Whether it's mental for me or whatever, it is staying. But as with bow selection, releases etc, everyone must find what works best for themselves. If you feel comfortable without it..cool. if you feel better with it....so be it. Just my opinion. :noidea:
     
  18. red44

    red44 Senior Member

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    Hmm, guess I never looked at it that way, speed-wise. I just figured it was all power stroke, but I can see what your saying. Anybody here compare using a chrono?
     
  19. Ronhop

    Ronhop RIP

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    That would be an interesting test actually... I really never thought about arrow speed being affected by a stopper...

    Ron
     
  20. Rhustek

    Rhustek New Member

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    Here is my "two cents on the string stopper" I believe that the stopper is only there for vibration and noise.

    The arrow is going to release from the string when the string is at its max speed! As soon as the string starts to slow down the arrow will release. This point is usually pretty close to the brace height because that is when the cams are stopped after you shoot. The reason you are seeing the string pass the brace height in those pictures is because of momentum. I would bet that even with a string stopper you will see the string move past the stopper, you will however get less vibration as your string returns to a stop.

    As an example take a piece of string and give it some slack, then pull it as tight as you can as fast as you can and watch what happens in the middle. At first it will go past level and back and forth until finally coming to a stop. this is what your bow string does. Now do the same test only applying something to act as a stopper just like the bow has, you will notice that your string comes to rest faster and with less resonating movement.

    With that said, I read someone's post on power stroke which is the time the string is in contact with the arrow. This to me makes the most sense on what is a forgiving bow. The less time the arrow is on the string the less time you (the shooter) can actually have an affect on your shot. I myself shoot an X-force with a 6" brace height but I have a 28" draw length, what does this mean? This means that I have the same power stroke as someone with a 29" draw and a 7" brace height. By subtracting your draw length by your brace height you essentially figure out your powerstroke.

    Since target shooters rely purely on accuracy and dont care about noise or speed, their bows are made with 8" brace heights and ZERO dampening devices. The new bows with shorter brace heights are built to get more speed out of your power stroke NOT to increase your accuracy.

    Sorry this is so long, guess I just got going. Again, this is just what I think.